Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jennifer Lawrence/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 20:31, 17 January 2017 [1].
Jennifer Lawrence[edit]
Jennifer Lawrence has impressively been the highest-paid actress in the world since 2015. She has also set a few records at the Oscars. The article was expanded by me and Krimuk2.0 (who unfortunately has retired) till the personal life section in May. Recently I decided to complete our work on it. We are ready to address any prose concerns - I believe there will be quite a few of them - you might have. Enjoy! – FrB.TG (talk) 10:22, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Source review and spotchecks[edit]
Source review - spotchecks not done
- FN40 should have a time or chapter reference
- The other reference covers everything FN40 was used to support the statement so I simply removed it.
- What makes Daily Express a high-quality reliable source? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:44, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
Comments from Wehwalt[edit]
- Support Excellently done, it reads very well. Just a few comments and I've made some hands-on edits you are free to revert if you do not like:
Resolved comments from Wehwalt
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Comments from Dank[edit]
Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)
- "She has won three Golden Globe Awards: Best Actress – Comedy or Musical for Silver Linings Playbook (2012) and Joy (2015)": That looks like two awards to me.
- Support on prose per my standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 02:23, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
Comments from Aoba47[edit]
Resolved comments from Aoba47
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Great work with the page. I only have relatively minor comments. Once my review is addressed, then I will support the nomination. Aoba47 (talk) 17:11, 17 December 2016 (UTC) |
Image review[edit]
- No audio files used, images only.
- All images were originally uploaded on Flickr and are properly licensed.
- Good use of captions that illustrate the image in a clear and concise manner for the reader. All images in the body of the article are appropriate for the sections.
- Every image has an appropriate ALT description.
Everything looks good with the images. Good luck with the rest of the comments. Aoba47 (talk) 18:26, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
- I appreciate the review and support, Aoba47 :) Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:23, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
Comments from Moisejp[edit]
Support on prose. I haven't spot-checked any sources. I did make several minor copy-edits. A couple of other minor points that don't affect my support:
Resolved comments from Moisejp
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The article states she played the daughter of Mel Gibson and Jodi Foster's characters in "The Beaver". She did not. She played the girlfriend of their son. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eindaeast (talk • contribs) 14:30, 22 December 2016 (UTC) |
Comments from HJ Mitchell[edit]
Comments HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:16, 29 December 2016 (UTC) Lead:
- The lead paragraph doesn't really tell us what she's known for. We get that she's an actress, she's made a lot of money, she's earned lots of awards, then we jump to feminism and philanthropy without learning anything about her acting. There wouldn't be any of the other stuff if it hadn't been for her acting so the emphasis should be on that.
- It does say she's "known in the media for being a vocal advocate of feminism and gender equality", but when it comes to film roles, I'm not sure what a good general description would be. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:10, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
- Yup, that sort of info can be found in the biographies of senior actors but Lawrence is a bit young for that. She is not particularly known for the types of roles she plays and things of that sort. I think for now it is enough just to discuss her success. - FrB.TG (talk) 08:51, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
- On that note, the lead isn't huge for a 4,000-word article, so you've got room to play with. If it was "my" article, I'd keep paragraphs two and three pretty much as they are, move the politics and philanthropy to a fourth paragraph and maybe add a tiny bit more detail (notable feminist statements, charitable work done by the foundation), then use the first paragraph for a summary within a summary and to introduce her biggest claims to fame.
- It takes a moment to parse all the adjectives in "with the acclaimed role of a poverty-stricken teenager in the independent drama"; maybe lose "acclaimed role"?
- "established her as the highest-grossing action heroine of all time. She has earned several accolades from her collaborations with director David O. Russell." That's a bit of a jolt; I'd expect more than half a sentence on her best-known and most successful role, but the prose jumps abruptly to different projects.
- The three sentences about the awards need a bit of a rewrite; they seem very repetitive at the moment and "in the two aforementioned films and for starring as the eponymous inventor" is very awkward.
- I was mildly surprised that Passengers wasn't mentioned in the lead, nor is anything about her public image.
Early life
- "Jennifer Shrader Lawrence was born on August 15, 1990..." The normal convention is to cite the full name and DOB in the lead so you don't have to repeat it (this one of the exceptions to WP:LEADCITE)
- "she was spotted by a talent scout" on the street, or was she performing/auditioning?
Career
- "made her film debut with a supporting role in the independent drama film Garden Party" a few words about this role would be good; it's her film debut, after all.
That's as far as the 2011–2013 subsection for now; more tomorrow hopefully. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:16, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comments so far, HJ Mitchell. It might not be perfect at the moment, but the article hopefully looks better now. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:10, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
- "something a little lighter" is that a quote from Lawrence herself? It's not entirely clear from the context; does the quote really add anything?
- It is indeed her own quote: "IGN: Is starring in a superhero movie an antidote to the seriousness of Winter's Bone? Jennifer Lawrence: I actually was thinking of it that way. Not this movie specifically, but kind of thinking about doing something a little lighter. I wouldn't call it an antidote, but I was definitely looking forward to it." In other words, she was looking for something less serious/dramatic. I have no objections to paraphrasing that if you'd like. Snuggums (talk / edits) 17:20, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
- "Despite being an admirer of the books, Lawrence was initially hesitant to accept the part, as she was intimidated by the scale of the film, and pondered how it would affect her career" What do we mean by "intimidated by the scale"? Is there any more detail in the sources about why she was reluctant and what effect she envisaged on her career? Was she looking to go back to something more serious, for example, or just trying to avoid being typecast in a sort of role? Do the sources elaborate on how her mother changed her mind?
- +'d grand to scale as in "grand scale". Hopefully that is clear. I read the source to see if there is anything worth adding about her mother convincing her to take on the film. It says that her mother told her not be scared by the film's size, but I don't think that is anything worth mentioning in fact that will just make the prose repetitive. Do you have any suggestion? - FrB.TG (talk) 17:40, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
- I understand what scale means but I was wondering why she was intimidated by this role in particular, and what her concerns were when she "pondered how it would affect her career". HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:47, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- Those are the other editor's (who is inactive here) words so I don't exactly know what he meant by this, but I have now used a quote from Lawrence, in which she expressed her concerns about taking on the project. But if it still does not make sense, an attempt can be made to remove this bit from the article. - FrB.TG (talk) 16:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- I get the meaning and I don't think it needs to be removed (though I like your re-written version). I was just wondering if there were any more details. In a biography of an actor, it's interesting that they hesitated before taking on the role that gave them their big break. If the sources aren't there there's not much we can do, but it would enhance the article if we knew what Lawrence's thoughts were. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:05, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- Any other recommendations for the article or does it now look FA-worthy? Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:09, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- Well, unfortunately that happens very much to the bios of contemporary actors like Lawrence. I often see in several bios that say certain actor was skeptical on taking up a role but s/he later changed his/her mind without clarifying why as the source does not do so. It is really an uphill task to write about them with the lack of literature and scholarly sources. I guess we just have to write from whatever we find. - FrB.TG (talk) 21:29, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- Sad but true :/ Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:47, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- That's the challenge with this sort of article. It's not easy to write a comprehensive biography of someone whose success is so recent, but we're about the only place you'll find one so it's that much more important. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:24, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- Sad but true :/ Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:47, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- Well, unfortunately that happens very much to the bios of contemporary actors like Lawrence. I often see in several bios that say certain actor was skeptical on taking up a role but s/he later changed his/her mind without clarifying why as the source does not do so. It is really an uphill task to write about them with the lack of literature and scholarly sources. I guess we just have to write from whatever we find. - FrB.TG (talk) 21:29, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- Any other recommendations for the article or does it now look FA-worthy? Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:09, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- I get the meaning and I don't think it needs to be removed (though I like your re-written version). I was just wondering if there were any more details. In a biography of an actor, it's interesting that they hesitated before taking on the role that gave them their big break. If the sources aren't there there's not much we can do, but it would enhance the article if we knew what Lawrence's thoughts were. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:05, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- Those are the other editor's (who is inactive here) words so I don't exactly know what he meant by this, but I have now used a quote from Lawrence, in which she expressed her concerns about taking on the project. But if it still does not make sense, an attempt can be made to remove this bit from the article. - FrB.TG (talk) 16:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- I understand what scale means but I was wondering why she was intimidated by this role in particular, and what her concerns were when she "pondered how it would affect her career". HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:47, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- +'d grand to scale as in "grand scale". Hopefully that is clear. I read the source to see if there is anything worth adding about her mother convincing her to take on the film. It says that her mother told her not be scared by the film's size, but I don't think that is anything worth mentioning in fact that will just make the prose repetitive. Do you have any suggestion? - FrB.TG (talk) 17:40, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
- "An Empire writer considered..." Was this reflective of the consensus among critics? Is there anything more that's worth adding about Apocalypse? The prose just seems to jump a little from a negative review to gross takings.
- I read a few reviews of Passengers before I went to see it, and Lawrence seems to have attracted praise for making the best of a poor film. Don't feel obliged to use it just because I brought it up, but one that caught my attention wrt Lawrence was this one, which concludes "Lawrence is no passenger. She’s carrying this thing".
- "Lawrence is vocal about issues pertaining to women's rights." I'd have expected at least a couple of sentences about when and where she was vocal about issues that matter to her.
There's nothing fundamental here, and I can't see any reason not to support once these minor concerns are addressed. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:04, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. - FrB.TG (talk) 17:40, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
- Support. Excellent work. As I said above, it's not easy to write these sorts of articles but people come to Wikipedia looking for them so it's important work. My minor criticisms have been addressed to the extent possible; there are details that would enhance the article here and there, but we can only go with the sources. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:24, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- Many thanks for your input and support, HJ Mitchell :D Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:32, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
- Support. Excellent work. As I said above, it's not easy to write these sorts of articles but people come to Wikipedia looking for them so it's important work. My minor criticisms have been addressed to the extent possible; there are details that would enhance the article here and there, but we can only go with the sources. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:24, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
Comments from John[edit]
Not bad. First pass comments; too many quotes and weird image formatting. Will look further. --John (talk) 19:42, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
- Are there any specific quotes you feel should be paraphrased? Sorry if there's too many at the moment, but I'm not sure which ones to change without there being too few. Do tell how the image formatting could be improved. Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:44, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
- The only quotes which should be kept are a very small number which are irreplaceable, ideally ones where the exact words of the quote have become part of the "story" of the subject. The others can be summarised. The upright images should be formatted by using the upright parameter. --John (talk) 21:01, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
- Implemented upright parameter into pics. Quotes will probably take some time to sort through. Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:09, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
- Quotes are major part of biographies of actors/actresses. It is the media speaking about them and their words cannot always be paraphrased the way they describe films/actors using adjectives. The article has only quotes of film reviews, of her speaking about her films and thoughts, and some other ones from directors and media publications of what they think about the actress – nothing particular that other FA-class actors/actresses do not have. If you could point some out that you feel are unnecessary that would be great. - FrB.TG (talk) 21:26, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
- There are too many and at present I would oppose on WP:QUOTEFARM. I can take a look at which ones should be paraphrased. It may or may not be tonight though. --John (talk) 22:02, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
- Quotes are major part of biographies of actors/actresses. It is the media speaking about them and their words cannot always be paraphrased the way they describe films/actors using adjectives. The article has only quotes of film reviews, of her speaking about her films and thoughts, and some other ones from directors and media publications of what they think about the actress – nothing particular that other FA-class actors/actresses do not have. If you could point some out that you feel are unnecessary that would be great. - FrB.TG (talk) 21:26, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
- Implemented upright parameter into pics. Quotes will probably take some time to sort through. Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:09, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
- The only quotes which should be kept are a very small number which are irreplaceable, ideally ones where the exact words of the quote have become part of the "story" of the subject. The others can be summarised. The upright images should be formatted by using the upright parameter. --John (talk) 21:01, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
- That's a good start. Let's look at what we have now. I'll do it section by section.
Early life
- She describes her childhood as an "unhappy" experience, as she suffered from hyperactivity and social anxiety and considered herself a misfit among her peers. This can be paraphrased without losing anything. Good encyclopedic writing is not ctr-C, ctrl-V.
- Lawrence says that her anxieties would "disappear" when she performed onstage and that acting "made me happy because I felt capable whereas before I felt good for nothing". Paraphrase.
- Describing her early experiences, Lawrence says: "It was hard at first. I didn't have any friends. I remember being kind of lonely." Paraphrase. --John (talk) 00:13, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry technical problems this end. Restricted Internet access. Be possibly a few days. Will finish. Promise. John (talk) 00:27, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
- I have been moving house and it has taken longer than expected. My Internet is now on but I only have an IPad to work with at present. Do you mind if I just edit the article directly? I propose to paraphrase a few of the quotes and clean up some of the language. Easier if I just do it then discuss here than posting suggestions here. That ok? John (talk) 20:48, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
- That came out really well! I was a bit concerned at first about the nude hacks bit, but thankfully your revision didn't take out the crucial bit agreed upon in the extensive discussion mattbuck mentioned. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:17, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
Comments from Ritchie333[edit]
I don't know Jennifer Lawrence from a hole in the ground I'm afraid, but I'll see what I can do....
- Is it worth clarifiying what a "children's camp" is - is this a holiday camp or something slightly different?
- Lawrence was educated at the Kammerer Middle School in Louisville As multiple Lawrences are being referred to in this section, I think WP:LASTNAME means we should go with "Jennifer" instead.
- I can't say I'm jumping up and down with excitement about using People as a source in an FA, though I seem to recall long drawn-out conversations at WP:RSN that says it's okay.
- The Rolling Stone source mentions her family was predominantly boys and she was raised accordingly; this would be worth adding as it explains why she didn't play with girls much
- her mother convinced her that they were lying - I'm confused; who was convincing whom?
More later, hopefully Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:00, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
- I look forward to it, Ritchie333. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:04, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
- Richie, did you want to add anything? I'd like to try and close this soon... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:14, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry, I've been caught up with other things. How quickly do you need comments? I wouldn't worry about waiting for me if it's important, I think enough experienced eyes have looked over this. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:39, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
- Richie, did you want to add anything? I'd like to try and close this soon... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:14, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
Comments from mattbuck[edit]
Addressed concern from Mattbuck
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I don't mean to rain on the parade of other commenters here, but I would not suggest paraphrasing everything. Specifically the comments regarding the iCloud hack of 2014, Lawrence was especially strident in her statements, and it is worth quoting them. This was discussed last year at Talk:Jennifer_Lawrence/Archive_2#Scandal, and the version which stood in the article (and which I reverted to) was the preferred wording. -mattbuck (Talk) 17:16, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
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Coordinator notes[edit]
Coordinator notes: I think we are just about there now. Just a few queries from me on which I'd like reassurance before we promote:
- "and was brought up as "tough" like them" and "Jennifer's mother did not allow her to play with other girls in preschool as she deemed her "too rough" as a result of her upbringing": I'm not too clear on the meaning of these words in quotation marks in this context. "Tough" and "Rough" are very vague terms and we should either explicitly spell out what they mean in this context or use a full quote. Given the concerns expressed above over quotes, I think the first option is better.
- Here's where it comes from: "Karen Lawrence says. 'I didn't mind if she was girlie, as long as she was tough.' Jennifer was so tough that in preschool she wasn't allowed to play with the other girls because she was too rough. 'She didn't mean to hurt them,' her mom says. 'They were just making cookies, and she wanted to play ball.'" If I were to try to reword this without quotes, then "aggressive" might be a stretch, but maybe "assertive" could work better. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:39, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
- Why are we calling her Jennifer in that section? I think it's fairly clear who we are talking about if we stick to "Lawrence"...
- ... but can we do a check of the number of times we use "Lawrence"? A ctrl-F search suggests we are over-using her name, including many times in the same paragraph, on many occasions.
- It is always worth asking this question for these types of articles: The reviews of her performances here are fairly glowing. How certain are we that a) This is a fair representation of the sources and that we have covered all the major views and b) That there are no reviews in reputable sources that say that she ISN'T amazing.
- If you look in the "2014-present" section, there is "criticized Lawrence for making her character too grim" for X-Men: Apocalypse and "considered her character to be of minimal importance" for Passengers. While wanting the positive and negative comments balanced out is understandable, I admittedly haven't seen very many negative bits on her compared to positive ones. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:39, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
- Although not a FA requirement (and this won't hold up promotion), I would recommend looking at the alt text for the images and checking that we are following best practice. The 2011 Academy Awards image alt looks like it might need to give her name. If there is any uncertainty, RexxS is probably the best person to ask. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:18, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
Closing comment: This has had a lot of review now. There may still be one or two last points to address from reviewers, or further points that arise, but these can be taken up on the article talk page. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:31, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:31, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.