Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/INTERFET logistics/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 30 March 2020 [1].
INTERFET logistics[edit]
This article is about the Australian intervention in East Timor in 1999-2000. This is an unusual case of a multinational coalition not lead by a great power. The politics of the operation, the diplomacy involved in assembling the coalition, and of course the operations are all fascinating subjects, but my interest as always is in the logistics. The official history of the intervention in East Timor, although written, has yet to appear, and I'm not expecting a great deal on logistics, as the World War II and Vietnam volumes are very poor in this regard. (The US volume on logistics in Vietnam has also failed to appear.) So this article represents my best effort. It has passed GA and A-class reviews, and the latter included source and image reviews. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:50, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- I can't find anything to nag about except WP:NBSP work needed. Good luck here, Hawkeye! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:08, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
- Support, everything looks good here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:58, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
Comments from HaEr48 (support)[edit]
Overall: Well-written and well-researched article, no major red flags in terms of quality, neutrality and copyright, and it is well-referenced. As I read the article from top to bottom, here's what I found can be improved:
- "was a highly complex, and ultimately successful, endeavour": I wonder if we should skip including this conclusion in the first sentence and let the facts below stand for themselves.
- "Eleven nations contributed transport aircraft to the ..., but over 90 per cent of the cargo and most of the passengers travelled by sea …" If the sea is the primary means of transport shouldn't that be mentioned ahead of the airlift?
- "transported by a naval task force that included the high-speed catamaran HMAS Jervis Bay and landing ship HMAS Tobruk, which brought supplies from Australia by sea. Crucial support came from the replenishment oiler HMAS Success and tankers HMNZS Endeavour and HMCS Protecteur." What is the difference between the roles of the first 2 ships and the last 3 ships, that they needed to be listed separately?
- The first two were moving troops and cargo, the latter providing logistical support. With the exception of the UK, English-speaking people have to travel long distances to get anywhere much, so at-sea refuelling and logistic support are essential; but many other navies lack this capability. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:09, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- The logistical support units spent the next two months catching up and eliminating backlogs: which months were these? The start date of the mission wasn't mentioned at this point.
- Changed to "October and November"
- I think the leads are missing these info: when the mission starts and ends (in months if not dates), as well as a brief background of East Timor's status (did it already gain independence, or is in transition?) as well as why INTERFET was deployed.
- Added: "INTERFET deployed to East Timor in September 1999"
- The island was formally divided between the Netherlands and Portugal in 1637: 1661 is the year mentioned by the reference?
- the first Portuguese governor of East Timor was appointed in 1702: The ref says 1701
- Any idea who were on the island or ruled it before the Europeans came? I'd suggest 1-2 sentences for the sake of completeness because paragraph 1 of background seems to focus on the colonial history, and begins with the Portuguese establishing a settlement which seems very European-centric for a non-European island.
- The East Timorese of course; my main concern was not with colonialism, but explaining how the island came to be divided in two. Added a couple of sentences: "The island of Timor has been populated for up to 40,000 years, populated by successive waves of immigrants from southern India, Malaysia and Melanesia. It was ruled by small kingdoms that traded spices, slaves and sandalwood with their neighbours."
- "the preferential allocation of resources to combat capabilities and the acceptance of risk in logistics functions brought the Army to the precipice of operational failure.": name the source of this quote inline
- In my view, this quote is an opinion, and WP:WIKIVOICE recommends that opinions are not stated in Wikipedia's voice (already done, by using quotation marks) and attributed to the source making the opinion. HaEr48 (talk) 22:29, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- Planning and organization: I understand that because Australia is the coalition leader it merits more coverage, but can we please find something about the other nations, especially those that sent large contingents ? I think this is important for the comprehensiveness criteria because other nations account for about half the troops.
- Alternatively, if Australia was actually responsible for all logistics in the mission, we should add more info about how it came to be that way, e.g. was there any coordination or discussion among the other nations that decided it this way? I think it's important both for comprehensiveness and to provide context to readers on why the rest of the article is so Australian-centric. Right now, Australia's almost exclusive role is presented as a given without much context.
- The codename Operation Stabilise was given to operations in and around East Timor, while Operation Warden included its logistic support activities in Australia: The second part is a little ambiguous, does Warden include or exclude operations in East Timor? If it is excluded, maybe the preceding sentence should be reworded because it gives the impression that Warden is entire intervention.
- However, due to its isolation, Darwin had better facilities than other cities of similar size: suggest explaining the causal relation between isolation and better facilities, it is not very obvious for the general reader like me.
- "Due to its isolation, Darwin had to be more self-supporting, and therefore had better facilities, than other cities of similar size" ?
- The outsourcing of "non-core" logistical functions in the ADF had created critical shortages of many essential trades ranging from cooks to port terminal handlers: Isn't the point of outsourcing to expand the workforce? why does it cause shortage?
- In "planning" Wilkinson was appointed Logistic Component Commander on 26 August, but in "organization" the date is 30 August - any reason for the different dates?
- It is not uncommon for a commander to be designated
- Stapleton was "dual-hatted" as both NCC (Commander, Task Group 645.1), answerable to both Cosgrove (Commander, Task Force 645) as COMFLOT (Commander, Task Group 627.1), and to COMAST's Maritime Commander, Rear Admiral John Lord (Commander, Task Force 627): Are there to many "both"s in this sentence? Could it be reworded to clarify?
- Spell out the full form of COMFLOT when first mentioned.
- Barrie announced: The operation will be Operation Stabilise…: is there any date of this announcement?
- "An important concern was the Japanese encephalitis vaccine regime": is it because the disease is endemic in East Timor, because there was an outbreak at the time, or…?
- Deployment: suggest reordering "Sealift" before "Airlift", because sealift seems to have had bigger contribution.
- Deployment: Did other non-Australian troops (especially outside Commonwealth countries) also deploy via Darwin/Australia? Could we add some explanation?
- Unfortunately, the landing ships HMAS Kanimbla and Manoora, purchased in 1994: Suggest removing "unfortunately" per WP:EDITORIAL
- The heliport was found abandoned: "The heliport" hasn't been mentioned before. Is it in Comoro, in the UNAMET compound, or somewhere else?
- Christianson went to the control tower and explained, through an interpreter since he did not speak Bahasa Indonesia,: "Bahasa Indonesia" is the Indonesian name of the language, which seems weird in an English sentence. Suggest using the English word "Indonesian". Compare "he did not speak Español" (seems weird) vs "he did not speak Spanish"
- Alternatively we can also get rid of "since he did not speak Bahasa Indonesia" because it is implied from the use of translator
- Australians always refer to it that way. It's not obvious. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:47, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Hawkeye7: I know "Bahasa Indonesia" is often used colloquially, but I think in academic texts it tends to be "Indonesian". Started a discussion to get consensus here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Indonesia#Indonesian_vs_Bahasa_guideline, feel free to chime in too. HaEr48 (talk) 04:30, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- Alternatively we can also get rid of "since he did not speak Bahasa Indonesia" because it is implied from the use of translator
- No. 381 Expeditionary Combat Support Squadron RAAF assumed responsibility for the operation of the airport at Dili, while No. 382 Expeditionary Combat Support Squadron RAAF operated Cakung Airport at Baucau: Did they take over all operations at the airports, or just INTERFET-related?
- " It was augmented by three French Air Force C-130Hs…" Suggest splitting the sentence because it is too long.
- Curious, is "C-130H" short for C-130 Hercules, or is it a variant of the aircraft? It seems both C-130H and C-130 are used in the text
- It is the model of the C-130. Everyone was flying the H model except the British, who had the K model See Lockheed C-130 Hercules#Further developments for all the technical details. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:47, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
- "In order to effect Cosgrove's operational concept of flooding East Timor with as many combat troops as possible, Evans deployed ..." Suggest adding the roles of Cosgrove and Evans in INTERFET, here or before, as context to this statement.
- as had occurred in the Vietnam War in 1966: Just to clarify: did this occur to Australia in 1966 or to the US-led coalition overall?
- We're talking about Australian forces here. Added a bit.
- ADF cargo was tracked using three computer systems, the Standard Defence Supply System (SDSS), Lotus Notes Interim Demand System (LNIDS), and the Cargo Visibility System (CVS): Given it mentions Lotus Notes as the developer of LNIDS, also mention those of SDSS and CVS for completeness?
- Each soldier had to carry a day's supply: is this Australian regulation applying to Australian soldiers or a general rule of thumb for everyone? Suggest clarifying because not all troops are Australian.
- the ADF had no ship-to-shore refuelling capability: Is there a good link for " ship-to-shore refuelling capability", to help understanding what that usually requires?
- With limited stocks of ammunition on hand, the 1,500 soldiers of the 3rd Brigade confronted some 15,000 TNI troops, who presumably had plenty of ammunition:
- Not sure if confronted is the best word here, given that the mission was Indonesian-sanctioned? How about something like "In comparison, TNI had 15,000 troops in the area who presumably had plenty of ammunition"?
- Is the 3rd brigade singled out because they were the first one to be deployed?
- The first phase of this was Operation Lavarack, in which 2 RAR moved by air and armoured personnel carriers of B Squadron, 3rd/4th Cavalry Regiment, by sea, to occupy Balibo, which was secured on 5 October
- Can this be reworded to be easier to parse? Did 2 RAR move by air and APC, or did 2 RAR move by air and the APCs moved by sea (if the latter, why were only the APCs moved and not the squadrons themselves)?
- " He was assisted by students from the...": Is "he" Cavanaugh or Wilkinson?
- The main body arrived in Dili on 3 December, but the ship carrying its heavy plant and equipment did not reach Brisbane until 27 November: 27 November is still before 3 December, so why is it a "but"?
- "There was no vaccine" and "Nor was there any treatment other than rest": are these for both diseases or just dengue?
- "One Malaysian UN observer died from malaria.": suggest moving it before "A particular concern with dengue…" because (1) the death seems more significant than the nine soldiers getting treated (but alive) (2) the Malaysian sentence doesn't seem to be connected with the rest of the paragraph it is in.
- "A prophylactic regime was instituted whereby personnel were given a daily dose of 100 milligrams (1.5 gr) of doxycycline commencing two days before departure from Australia and continuing for two weeks after returning": Who instituted it? INTERFET or Australian military? Is it for all INTERFET troops, or just Australian ones?
- three weeks after return from Australia: How about Australian soldiers, when did they get this primaquine?
- told a CMOC meeting : what's a CMOC?
- Postal: Interesting info, any info for mails from/to other countries further than Australia?
- took advantage of free mail delivery: Is it free due to the military mission, or due to Christmas? does the free delivery apply to soldiers from all over the world or just Australian?
- Indonesia recognised East Timor as an independent nation on 19 October, and TNI forces withdrew on 31 October, leaving INTERFET in charge: I think this is better placed as background than "end of mission" as it was closer to the beginning? Also, while reading the article body I kept wondering about when the status of East Timor change or if INTERFET interacted with TNI at all. This part provides the important clarification and I think is better to be mentioned in the beginning.
- End of mission: Could we have more info on when the troops started leaving and how? I am assuming there should be logistical aspects related to returning troops and their supplies
- Or did the troops not return at this point because they also made up UNTAET's forces? If yes, it could be mentioned also
- 2 and 3 RAR returned to Australia leaving 5/7 RAR behind with UNTAET.
- End of mission: Suggest switching the order of the sentences starting with "On 20 February 2000" and "Australian logistical support". The former sentence is a bit surprising without context (why would you switch units with just 3 days left?), but the latter sentence provides that context and is better to be first, IMO.
- While the troops had good reason to be critical of a lack of spare parts, medical supplies and amenities, they still received logistical support on a scale that many other armies could only dream about: The last part reads quite hyperbolic, suggest either rewording or using quotation mark if it's a verbatim quote
- Cosgrove had the resources he needed to carry out his mission: "INTERFET had the resources he needed to carry out its mission" to avoid focusing on just one person?
- Retrospect: Can we add perspective from other nations about the support they received in East Timor?
- Picture: HMAS Tobruk: is the ship the left one or the right one?
- Picture: "HMCS Protecteur in 2014": is the ship the one in front or back?
- Foreground. It is being towed by the tugboat USNS Sioux, Embarassing for the ship, but it's a nice image of it.
- Some sources need more complete info for example author, date, and more precise description of publisher: footnotes 14, 20, 29, 33, 42, 43, 53, 61, 110
- I have also edited lightly when I am confident about the needed improvement, feel free to modify any if it's not appropriate.
- Disclaimer: I am competing in WikiCup and planning to claim points from this review.
I hope I don't bore you with too much feedback, and hope they are useful. Good job and thank you for your work. HaEr48 (talk) 19:17, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- No, that's fine. I should see if I can get Zawed to check the New Zealand section. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:04, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
- I've taken a gander and made a few edits to correct some typos. There was one sentence (being on 28 days readiness) that I wasn't sure of, so please check my edit there is correct. I have the Crawford & Harper ref, will doublecheck it later today/tomorrow. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 23:38, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Support the article is in great shape and I do not have further suggestion. HaEr48 (talk) 14:33, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
Comments by Dudley[edit]
- "brought troops and supplies from Australia by sea" You do not need "by sea" as you have said it on the line above and named ships.
- "HMNZS Endeavour and HMCS Protecteur" I would specify New Zealand and Canadian. NZ is obvious but I had to check what C referred to.
- You show the statistics in the 2nd paragraph in different ways. 90% and most for sea, and exact quantities for air. I suggest giving the exact numbers by sea in brackets if the information is available.
- You have logistics or logistical six times in the final paragraph of the lead. Would it be correct to replace "vehicles and logistical support" with "vehicles and other supplies" and "inadequate logistics" with "inadequate supplies"?
- I do not think the early history of Timor is relevant in such a specialist article, although that is personal opinion.
- Your explanation of the situation before independence is very unclear. If I understand correctly, before WW2 West Timor was part of the Dutch East Indies and East Timor was a Portuguese colony. The whole island was occupied by Japan during the war and handed back to the colonial powers after the war. West Timor became part of Indonesia in 1949, but the east stayed Portuguese until 1974. A civil war then broke out between the pro-independence Fretilin and the UDT, which opposed independence except during a short period of cooperation with Fretilin. This should be spelled out if correct.
- Indonesia should be wikilinked, but should it be at the first mention of the country, which is as "Indonesian" or the first mention of "Indonesia"?.
- "Oecussi enclave". The article on Oecussi describes it as an exclave. I have never heard of this word before, but it is correct and enclave wrong according to Enclave and exclave.
- ""teeth-to-tail" ratio". Is there an article you can link to?
- "the very same cuts in logistic capability rendered this impossible" I am not clear what you are saying here. I assume you are referring to the "administrative cuts", but I would take this to mean in desk personnel rather than logistical capabilities (which presumably means mainly transport and storage facilities and stocks).
- "which based in Sydney" "which was based in Sydney"?
- "developing plans for Operation Spitfire, the evacuation of foreign nationals and selected East Timorese". I think it would be clearer to start the paragraph with something like "The first task, which was to evacuate foreign nationals and selected East Timorese, was designated as Operation Spitfire."
- I realise that Australia and NZ took the lead roles, but it seems unbalanced to give an extremely (excessively?) detailed account of their preparations, down to who attended which meeting, and not a word of the logistical preparations of the other 21 countries which took part.
- "and joined the TNI personnel there". The very high use of initials makes the article difficult to follow for non-experts. It would, for example, make it easier for readers if you wrote here "and joined the Indonesian army personnel there".
- "Singaporean RSS Intrepid, and the Danish civilian ship Arktis Atlantic". No change needed, but is the first ship redlinked and not the second on the principle that every naval ship deserves its own article but not every civilian one?
- More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:25, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
- "we saw pallets of beer being loaded on hercs" The next sentence refers to Darwin but I am not clear whehter the whole Canadian quote refers to Darwin.
- " black and grey water". These could be linked to Blackwater (waste) and Greywater.
- This is a first rate article. I found it difficult to follow due to the excessive use of initials, but I assume that this is standard in this type of article. The only major fault is the first paragraph and the first sentence of the second paragraph of the background section, which are a collection of facts rather than a clear explanation. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:42, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- I pointed out above that you have not clearly explained the history and suggested what needs to be covered. You agreed that my summary is correct, but did not amend the article. It is not relevant that the Japanese invaded on 19 February 1942, or that Australia supported Indonesian independence and proposed that East Timor become a UN trusteeship. What is relevant is that after the war West Timor became part of Indonesia and East Timor reverted to being a Portuguese colony, but you have not said so. I would delete the whole first paragraph as too off topic, but if you do give the earlier history you need to state it clearly. I would start the background something like: "Timor is an island of 30,777 square kilometres, 700 kilometres north-east of Darwin in Australia. After WW2, West Timor became part of Indonesia and East Timor was a Portuguese colony." Dudley Miles (talk) 17:35, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
- The early history is about how East Timor became a Portuguese colony, and how it became politically separated from ethnically identical West Timor. It is relevant that the island was occupied by the Japanese as it was this that created the sense of obligation between Australia and East Timor without which INTERFET would never have occurred. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:51, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Dudley Miles and Hawkeye7: How are we doing at resolving this? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:33, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
Support by Nick-D[edit]
As a disclaimer, I originally suggested to Hawkeye that he develop this article. As I've noted elsewhere, the results have been great, even by Hawkeye's usual standards. I reviewed this at ACR, and the changes since then look good. I have the following comments, all of which are minor:
- "The ADF had not anticipated commitment to such a large peacekeeping mission" - the tense is a bit off here ("The ADF had not anticipated being committed to such a large peacekeeping mission", perhaps?)
- "The Chief of the Defence Force, Admiral Chris Barrie, centralised strategic and operational planning for the projection of forces to East Timor at ADF Headquarters, bypassing the service chiefs." - Was this a change in procedures? I thought that the arrangements where the service chiefs are responsible for "raise and sustain" functions only and don't have operational control of their forces were in place by this time.
- "in case one had to make an emergency landing" - should this be " in case any had to make an emergency landing", or was there only a capacity to respond to a single incident?
- "The 198th Works Section deployed on 2 and 5 October." - I'd suggest noting the role of this unit
Nick-D (talk) 10:12, 14 March 2020 (UTC) Support My comments are now all addressed, and I'm very pleased to support this fine article's promotion to FA status. Nick-D (talk) 00:35, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
Support Comments by JennyOz[edit]
Hi Hawkeye, another credit to your comprehensivity and I only have minor tweaks to suggest...
- mention Timor Leste name somewhere?
- INTERFET deployed to East Timor in September 1999 - wlink East Timor
- despatched v dispatched
- During the Second World War, East Timor was occupied by Australian and Dutch forces - wlink Sparrow Force so readers can see it was a friendly occupation?
- wlink East Timor (province) somewhere?
- Think we can do without it, but linked Indonesian occupation of East Timor Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:34, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Australian commandos and Dutch troops on the island waged a guerrilla campaign until they withdrew in January 1943.[5] - ambiguous ie could be read as Aust v Dutch. Also "they withdrew" could be read as Japanese withdrew
- This created a bond between Australia and East Timor - "This" refers to "East Timorese in helping Australians in the Second World War"
- humanitarian response to the tragedy." - move full stop
- of a 1,000 TEU container ship - hyphen?
- The population were poor, - was?
- so that the Army's Darwin-based - Aust Army not linked? (RAN and RAAF are)
- The logistics staff at DFJHQ - DJFHQ
- Wilkinson's liaison officer at DFJHQ - DJFHQ
- Kehoe, the commander of the 10th Force Support Battalion - needs (10 FSB)
- responsible the coordinating the logistics - for
- 2,500 civilians were evacuated from East Timor by air - where to?
- Colonel Martyn Dunne, a graduate - wlink
- A mutual logistics support agreement with ADF was signed - between ADF and NZDF?
- would take 60 days supplies - apostrophe?
- The limitations of Darwin's air and sea ports, its facilities for the storage and distribution of supplies, and its information and communications networks, were not overlooked. Due to its isolation, Darwin had to be more self-supporting, and therefore had better facilities, than other cities of similar size. - "limitations" seems to contradict "better facilities"?
- chiefs in their the role as senior environmental - remove "the"
- Stapleton was appointed Maritime Component Commander (NCC) - MCC or Naval Component Commander (NCC)?
- providing fourth line logistic support in - hyphen ie fourth-line?
- "This allowed C-130s from Townsville" and "That day, C-130s flew 33 sorties" - definitely plain C-130 not 130Hs?
- A British Royal Air Force (RAF) detachment - is "British" needed?
- Sure, why not? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:34, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Ah, just because I see it come up on main page dyk noms and itn items now and then to remove UK or British as there is only one named Royal Air Force. No problem though.
- Sure, why not? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:34, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- distance Darwin to East Timor might be helpful somewhere
- installation of tie down restraints - hyphen?
- Evans deployed his brigade - there are 2 Evanes, do we need to clarify Mark/Jim?
- replenishing HMS Success with 150 tonnes - HMAS (or remove some HMAS from Success mentions?)
- landings at Suai on the south coast - wlink Suai, East Timor
- Oecussi enclave v Oecussi Enclave
- By 14 October, the APCs of B Squadron - at "bring 25 M113 armoured personnel carriers up" or at "and two M113 armoured personnel carriers from the 3rd/4th Cavalry" needs (APC)
- The first sappers to arrive - wlink sappers
- had arrived on HMS Jervis Bay on 27 - HMAS
- hard stand v hardstands
- Major General Des Mueller's Support - wlink Desmond Mueller
- ATCO style accommodation - hyphen
- By late October, expectations that units - add 1999 here as prev section slipped into January
- and 850 tons of cargo - convert
- move six tonnes of supplies - convert
- memory of previous campaigns had faded since 1975 - clarify what happened in 1975?
- Army, RAN and RAAF had not practiced joint logistical - practised
- McManus's v Evans'
- USS Blue Ridge is mentioned in 2 captions but not in prose?
- William Cohen - has 2 different wlinks
- caption "anchor 3 kilometres (3,000 yd) off" - convert to miles instead of yards per "about 10 kilometres (6.2 mi) from"?
- caption "Civil Military Operations Center INTERFET headquarters in Dili in February 2000" - swap to Centre to match prose
- add this: Template:East Timor topics?
- WP:BIDIRECTIONAL:
Every article that transcludes a given navbox should normally also be included as a link in the navbox so that the navigation is bidirectional.
But this article does not appear in that Navbox. So no. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:34, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- WP:BIDIRECTIONAL:
- ref 72 Stevens 2007, pp. 27,4. - is second page number correct?
- Martin, Hollie - alpha order
- Peragallo, Mario - alpha order
That's it, JennyOz (talk) 08:03, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
Coord note[edit]
Notwithstanding similar reviews carried out at the MilHist ACR, I've checked image licensing and source reliability and no issues leap out. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:55, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 13:56, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.