Talk:Twitter under Elon Musk

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And then what?[edit]

I have noticed a lot of dangling threads in this article, which I'm going to go through and tag. Most of these take the form of, e.g. On March 23 at 13:24 UTC, Musk said that he was going to 'ban the hell out of that guy' or something along those lines, and then... nothing. Did he do it? Was the guy banned at all? Is he still banned? What does the guy think about this? We should be able to provide information like that. jp×g🗯️ 23:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Man, there are a lot of these. Some of this stuff seems like it does pass the test of time, but some of it really does not. Like this: By December 17, Twitter was blocking some links to Mastodon as being "potentially harmful" or "malware".. What... happened? Was anyone banned for this? Did anything happen? Did it get enforced and then lifted? If it's not still the case, when was the policy lifted? If we can't find anything along those lines in news coverage, we should probably treat it as a one-off event (e.g. "on December 17, it was reported that links to blah blah blah were being blocked due to whatever"), rather than phrase it like this is a continuing thing. jp×g🗯️ 00:23, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As an update, I've started to go through these "needs update" tags, resolving the issues you are correctly raising. I'm by no means done but dealt with about half of these so far. For reference, some were very useful, like after NPR ceased activity on Twitter, this did require an update to explain that 6 months later they still no longer use Twitter, and the negligible effects this has had. However, I did find some of tags inaccurate. For example many paragraphs in the state-affiliated media section had these tags, but the final sentence adequately summarised the end result; that Twitter stopped using these labels entirely, even if there was a little extra info that could be added for clarity. Some of these simply needed a WP:CLARIFY tag, rather than a needs update, in order to bring the information up to date, or a least a better reason for needing updating.
I've also tried to correct some the wording/phrasing if you also correctly pointed out, where there is no further information avoiding giving the impression that the event is ongoing or present as it were. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 16:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Restructure of sections proposal[edit]

Proposing a change to the structure of 2nd headed sections to include "Policy changes". I still feel this page is a bit of a "mess" when it comes to structure, as not every 3rd headed section falls into the sub-section of "Content moderation" or "Other developments", and I wouldn't describe "Policy changes" as content moderation either. I already made a few moves, but thought I'd check with others on a bolder re-arrange.

---

Corporate management 

   Layoffs and mass resignations
   Resignation poll
   Corporate value

Content moderation 

   Initial reforms
   Misinformation and disinformation
   Increase in hate speech
   Pentagon leaks
   Child sexual abuse

Policy changes 

   Account suspensions
       ElonJet and journalists suspended
   State-affiliated media labeling
   Tweet views and messaging limits
   Announced removal of user blocking
   API changes

Developments 

   Verification program
   Revamp and rebrand
   Engagement with Musk's tweets
   Delaying links to external websites
   User engagement

Antisemitism controversies 

   Toggle Antisemitism controversies subsection
   Leo Frank disinformation
   Anti-ADL tweet campaign
   Musk amplification of antisemitism
   Media Matters analysis and lawsuit

Reactions and commentary

---

This would also be changing "Other developments" simply to "Developments". I'm sure there are further improvements to the structure of the page, so any feedback/proposals is appreciated. I'm aware there are other improvements/updates necessary for this page, especially if it is to be moved to X (social media), but I also think a better structure overall would help with that. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 10:02, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Move to X (social network)[edit]

Twitter under Elon Musk's management is now known as X, it would make sense for the article about the recent history of Twitter to use this name. Flameoguy (talk) 16:14, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes this has been proposed already: Talk:Twitter_under_Elon_Musk#Proposed_split_of_Twitter over the main talk page Talk:Twitter#Survey CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 16:34, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 May 2024[edit]

Twitter under Elon Musk → X (social network) – See Talk:Twitter#Requested move 17 May 2024 elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 19:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I mean I’m not sure if the public would like this, Twitter would have to be renamed, Twitter (2006-2022) (or 2023) I mean it’s plausible. But I’m not sure this article can be X (social network). I have not made up my mind yet & I’ll think about this before I choose. Misterunknown24 (talk) 20:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Like, this whole article would have to look similar to the Twitter article that’s up right now. & I’m not sure if someone is willing to do that. And also the article rn would have to be one of the parts in the Table of Contents in the new article. So we will have to see. Misterunknown24 (talk) 20:09, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I kind of want to move it now, but I can’t. We have to agree first. But if we all agree the bot would probably move it so I wouldn’t have too. Misterunknown24 (talk) 20:10, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I’ve thought about it: Support. For the following reasons above. Misterunknown24 (talk) 22:33, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Twitter would not have to be moved. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:09, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support this helps to deal with the significant WP:BLP issues that this article faces which are caused by having Musk's name in the article name. This article covers the X corporation and since Musks name is in the title it by default (and incorrectly) attributes many actions to Musk, who may or may not be involved in those actions. This name change (move) will also serve to demarcate the change in ownership and structure of the new corporation. While BLP policy will of course still apply to content that is attributed to Musk on the moved article, it will not by default be incorrectly attributing every bit of X corporation to Musk. We have to AGF to Musk and that tells us that he is the chairman and owner, but not the CEO. It is UNDUE to therefore attribute all to the owner. Think of football and basketball teams, that are often owned by a billionaire who views the team as a bobble, we dont attribute the actions of the team to the owner. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 21:54, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jtbobwaysf: what significant WP:BLP issues that this article faces are caused by having Musk in the article name vs the article (which isn't going to change)? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 12:39, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is since the article name is the BLP subject, it attributes by default all actions by the X Corp management to its owner. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:19, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@The Man Without Fear, Isla, Joe vom Titan, Civic Nexus, Editior23, UltrasonicMadness, Padgriffin, Datapass, Happily888, EarthTeen, Schierbecker, GEGOBYTE, Primium, Graham11, Theimmortalgodemperor, Glman, ScottSullivan01, Matthieu Houriet, Esolo5002, Ye9CYNMD, AltendoYT, SarahJH07, Pickleishere, Melmann, Fiendpie, Skakkle, 魔琴, XtraJovial, Clearfrienda, Hurtcopain, Omnis Scientia, Botto, Félix An, Thesavagenorwegian, NegativeMP1, Panam2014, Traumnovelle, Dylnuge, Gluonz, JohnCWiesenthal, SuperMario231 64, Aitraintheeditorandgamer, Zxcvbnm, Horse Eye's Back, Patar knight, 85sl, and Quxyz. (2/2) InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per previous discussion—blindlynx 00:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per previous discussion Panam2014 (talk) 00:50, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This is a good solution. There is definitely enough difference to warrant two articles. Clearfrienda 💬 00:52, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, as that would basically confuse readers that the website has two separate eras covered, rather than a whole identity. BaldiBasicsFan (talk) 00:56, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Viacom has two separate eras. Turtletennisfogwheat (talk) 01:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If we're talking about companies, there's plenty of precedent; Yahoo Inc. is another. But this is a product, and I don't believe there have been many cases similar to this one. InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:08, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe a good comparison would be ArmaLite AR-15, M16 rifle, and AR-15–style rifle. They are weapons based on the same design and in some cases sharing nomenclature but warrant different articles due to changes over time. Flameoguy (talk) 15:33, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The bulk of sources in the last week, with the change of the domain name, are basically considering this the final nail in Twitter's coffin. And while the service/social media may be similar, the controversies and management aspects of it are vastly different that it would make covering the whole of Twitter/X in one article undue and confusing. — Masem (t) 01:29, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I think, as per the previous discussions on the Twitter talk page, that the Musk acquisition represents such a significant break in Twitter's management, branding operations, and general approach that a) it's become necessary to rename this page to serve as the home for all X-related events and b) that the original Twitter page should remain as-is to preserve the original company's decisions/ethos/impact. Fiendpie (talk) 00:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: This is the solution that Masem proposed that I fully endorse. The platform under Dorsey & Musk has been different enough that separate articles are warranted. But, yes; a lot of work will be needed to essentially rewrite the Musk article. BOTTO (T•C) 00:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Didn't he say he wanted X to ultimately be an app along the lines of WeChat? I understand in its current form it's just a social media site/app, but overtime as they focus on that goal, new features not related to social media may/will get added. Unknown0124 (talk) 00:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:CRYSTALBALL- the content should be reflect what the subject matter currently is rather than what might be added in the future. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 01:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    and should this WeChat-like app come to pass, that's just more a change of name of this from X (social network) to whatever name is more appropriate but without having to move content around. — Masem (t) 01:30, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, makes sense to have a clean break. Jordan117 (talk) 01:11, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • FWIW, I have spelt out exactly what I think needs to be done, which includes this rename but also some content management, at Talk:Twitter#Masem’s proposal. All those steps don't need to be decided now, but it is the logical outcome involving this renaming. --Masem (t) 01:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per the consensus established on Twitter that “there is no consensus that "X" is the most commonly used name for the social network”, so either “Twitter” is the current common name, or “X” is the common name. Both cannot be true at the same time. The core product also hasn’t really changed since the takeover, and the subject of this article is pretty much just controversies and complaints caused post-takeover. This feels like an attempt to sidestep the consensus established in that RM, especially as this would also call for substantial content duplication and/or merging. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 01:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The consensus in that RM was Not move. There was less consensus to move Twitter to X (social network) than there was to keep the Twitter article the way it is. Turtletennisfogwheat (talk) 01:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The rationale behind the Not Move was that there wasn’t consensus that “X” was a more common name than “Twitter”. As pointed out in that closing, this isn’t something we can do with just an RM.
    Can we establish that “X” is a different product from Twitter? The management changes and controversies have been cited but there was a year’s time where those still happened under the Twitter banner post-Musk. So does that retroactively belong in the “X” article? Or does it belong in Twitter? If the latter is true then what exactly is the difference between Twitter and X? Is it POV to even suggest that the two are fundamentally different products? This isn’t something you can fix with an RM, this is calling to basically change the subject matter of an entire article based on something where we weren’t able to decide if the name change is even the COMMONNAME. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 02:03, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Another major issue is that when do we draw the line for when Twitter became no longer Twitter? The changes started almost immediately after the takeover, but the rebranding happened a year later. You’re almost bound to end up with WP:NPOV issues because there really isn’t a clear point to draw the line. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 01:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The natural break is when Musk bought it. That's when much of the backend and policies changed. You'd need a section on Twitter to summarize the acquisition, and likely documenting when the domain names were changed, but that's just for comprehension. Masem (t) 01:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As I pointed out in my other comment, that leaves almost an entire years worth of time where the site was unambiguously referred to as “Twitter”, even by Musk himself. Also there are obvious POV issues with suggesting that Twitter ceased to be the moment Musk bought it, in addition to POV issues with suggesting that “X” and “Twitter” are different products at all given that the status quo is that they’re being treated as the same product. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 02:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Remember that within weeks of the purchase, Musk was calling it X. While we can talk about COMMONNAME aspects and why keeping Twitter where it was for that year, at that point, that when it was formally renamed to X. Thus, it absolutely makes sense that the history from the day Muck bought it that all that content makes sense at an article called X, if we are keeping a historical article on what Twitter was before Musk bought it.
    And given everything Musk has said as well as how the media have approached it, Twitter and X should be considered wholly different products. It is a unique situation compared to anything else out there, hence why the comparison to why we have two Viacom articles (reflected eras of different management) makes sense here. Masem (t) 05:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I guess the one question I have is how we plan to handle incoming links. Mentions of Twitter post–July 2023 should probably use [[X (social network)|X]] or [[X (social network)|X]], formerly known as [[Twitter]], and mentions of Twitter pre–October 2022 should definitely retain [[Twitter]]. But what about mentions of Twitter between October 2022 and July 2023, when the service was under Musk's ownership but still called Twitter? If we decide to retain the article's current scope, which covers that period, then what are we supposed to do, use [[X (social network)|Twitter]]? InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:13, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    “there is no consensus that "X" is the most commonly used name for the social network” argument fails basic logic and also policy. We follow official corpoate names, and not wikipedians opinion on names. We would still be calling alphabet as google. There is nothing in WP:NCCORP to support the argument that we will use an old corporate name because we do some WP:OR and count sources. There is also nothing in WP:MOSTM that supports the argument that we wikipedians are going to call it twitter, just because the name is better than x. I personally like the twitter name and the bird better, but this doesnt mean that I get to raise my hand and suggest the article should be called that. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:50, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    “We follow official corpoate names, and not wikipedians opinion on names.”
    Aside from the fact that NCORP doesn’t even cover X (the social media) as it is a product, NCORP would cover X Corp. but NCORP explicitly states that “Whenever possible, the most common usage in independent, reliable, secondary sources should be used (such as The Hartford for The Hartford Financial Services Group, Inc.; and DuPont for E. I. du Pont de Nemours and Company).” So WP:COMMONNAME still applies. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 21:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We follow official corpoate names, and not wikipedians opinion on names. No, we don't. That's precisely what WP:OFFICIALNAME and WP:NAMECHANGES says not to do. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:04, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    All of the policies you and I have both cited support changing the name to follow the x re-branding as well as the sources coverage of the re-branding. I doubt you can even find a couple decent recent sources that use the term twitter without mentioning the name is changed to x. Of course there are RS that are stating 'x, formerly called twitter' and/or 'twitter now called x', but those dual mention RS only lend weight to us changing the article name. Post your actual RS here showing recent RS that refer to twitter alone and make no mention of x, rather than just stating your opinion the sources are doing this. Where are those sources? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 19:56, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I disagree. Anyone who uses the site can tell you it's quite different now that Musk runs it, and there's no sense in not acknowledging a deliberate rebranding. Flameoguy (talk) 15:27, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Padgriffin's sentiment. Also, for when another one of these comes up in like 2 weeks, please don't ping me for these. Neo Purgatorio (talk) 01:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: In the previous request, I supported both the initial proposal and the alternative proposal. This is effectively the alternative proposal, which had quite a lot of support in the previous request. From my understanding, a proposal similar to this was also the most popular option in a survey I participated in a few months ago at Talk:Twitter. –Gluonz talk contribs 02:09, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: My opinion from the RM remains unchanged: that Twitter and X have separate articles since X is fundamentally not Twitter, a la the Ship of Theseus. Kailash29792 (talk) 02:19, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Do we have any sources that actually support the claim that X is “fundamentally” not Twitter? Also citing the Ship of Theseus highlights the problem with POV I noted earlier, because it is literally based on your POV if the Ship of Theseus is still the same Ship of Theseus. There is no “correct” answer that doesn’t violate WP:NPOV in the absences of sources that also make the claim or draw the line. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 02:27, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Many sites have proclaimed that the old Twitter "as we know it" is dead. Just do a quick Google News search. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:04, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    A lot of those links seem to be about the name being dead, not the service. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 23:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Scroll past those. Admittedly, the search results are a bit diluted now that the URL has changed. Here is a refined search before the URL change (5/17/24). We can go even further than that, to before Musk announced the rebrand (7/23/23). This sentiment (that the old "Twitter" is dead and Musk's vision is radically different) is pretty well-documented. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:02, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I still see a lot of people believing that Twitter/X would be dead either in terms of the website being defunct or its userbase vanishing akin to Myspace. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 00:23, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I think that X is intrinsically a new company and should have a dedicated page. It would stop all the attempted moves of the Twitter page that are unwarranted. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 03:39, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support, it works i guess. What about "X (Formerly Twitter)" for this page? Tantomile (talk) 03:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not a proper title. Using parentheses to signify a former name would be unprecedented. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 05:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for two reasons:
    1. The previous RM established Twitter as the social network's common name.
    2. Twitter/X is the same social network. This article is about a particular era of that social network's history. The proposed title would suggest that this article is about a social network itself, thus wrongly implying that either (a) X is social network that is a successor of Twitter, rather than merely a renaming of Twitter, or (b) this article is about the entire history of the social network since 2006.
Graham (talk) 03:56, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Point 2 is easily remedies with a well-written lede section and hatnotes to make sure the reader understands the content of what X (social network) is from 2023 onward while Twitter is covered elsewhere. Masem (t) 05:27, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would paper over a genuine issue - the fact that a service changed (for the worse, some say) or that new features are planned (like payments) does not mean it is a successor. The widespread mention of "X, formerly Twitter" in reliable sources, or the seemingly unanimous media framing of the Twitter -> X move as a "rebrand" (meaning, the same service) shows that it would be WP:OR for us to treat them as separate services. DFlhb (talk) 06:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC) edited 06:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
+1 Graham (talk) 04:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
X is not twitter. They are incredibly different sites, with different cultures and user experiences. Twitter never had paid blue checks, or a button for AI nonsense. Musk has stated that he is deliberately attempting to create a social media network on the bones of twitter, rather than simply overhaul the existing site. Flameoguy (talk) 15:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: this it the same platform as before, just with a name change, so it should be listed under its commonname Twitter --FMSky (talk) 06:08, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - This move only makes sense if we treat Twitter & X as two separate networks, which would be a subjective decision. This article is fine as a child-article. It covers Twitter/X's controversies in relation to Musk, his leadership, and his impact on society (which is the precise reason why these controversies were found noteworthy by the press). Second, this article would not be fine as the "primary" article on a social network; that would change its scope and require a rewrite, to refocus on its features, technological aspects, societal impact, etc, like all of our articles on social networks. A move would create pervasive due weight issues which don't currently exist. DFlhb (talk) 06:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This will result in the X article becoming a WP:POVFORK. Félix An (talk) 08:08, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It is not a fork if it covers a different subject. As long as Twitter is up until the Musk era and this one is the Musk era onwards, it is a split, not a fork. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The problem is that it relies on POV that the two are different products to begin with, since it’s not a stance that’s really supported by sources. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 19:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: This should have been done a year ago; those who still stubbornly oppose it are those who cannot keep up with change. Kerim Demirkaynak (talk) 08:09, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Seconded. Wikipedia should describe the world as it is, not as people wish it was. Twitter isn't around anymore. Flameoguy (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I recognise the strength of oppose arguments that Twitter remains the commonname including for Twitter under Musk. But the point of COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGES is that the name must be recognisable. Twitter under Elon Musk as a subject is very recognisably the X social network. The split makes sense, because Musk very clearly bought the network and maked it something else. Keeping this as Twitter under Elon Musk would not be a worng result for now, but at some point it will definitely need this change, whereas the Twitter article can be repurposed and the old name kept, which will always be more sensible for an article on the Twitter era, which would not really make much sense under the new name. It could be a touch too early for the change, but ultimately this is the way it should be, and it will not be confusing - indeed it will be less confusing - to make this change. For that reason, we should just get on and do it. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – As much as I personally don't like it, the network has officially changed its name. Svartner (talk) 08:30, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per everyone above and per COMMONNAME and NAMECHANGES, It actually makes sense to have 2 articles as without making this 10x long it would be impossible and confusing to have it all under one article, We should preserve all history we have being an Encyclopedia and all, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 08:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per previous discussion. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:21, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The above claims that Twitter and X are different things are pure WP:OR and not at all supported by reliable sources, which almost universally refers to the site as "X (formerly Twitter)". The fundamentals of Twitter, including its user base, mode of operation, technical details and history remain the same. WP:NAMECHANGES tells us to rename the article Twitter as and when the new name has become the most common in reliable sources. What it does not tell us to do is to fork off a new article under the new name, just because a few Wikipedians think it's not the same website.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Isn't there a good reason Londinium and London have two different articles? Why not Twitter and X (social network). Flameoguy (talk) 15:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: per previous rough consensus established months ago, as well as strong support for re-naming in previous RM. I see some opposition claiming that consensus wasn't established in previous RM for a name-change, but that RM has nothing to do with re-naming this article as X (social network), as others have explained. The article is question otherwise documents the transition from Twitter into X, so it seems entirely appropriate for it to reflect the article X (social network), especially given the clear lack of consensus to re-name the Twitter article as X in previous RM. This implies re-naming this article has been green lit, in the context of a lack of conflict with the Twitter article that won't be re-named to X anytime in the future it seems. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 10:50, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Once the rename happens we could split content from Twitter here Isla🏳️‍⚧ 11:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That would be good to do. People are complaining about due weight issues as though this article isn't warranting a rewrite anyway. Flameoguy (talk) 15:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    People are complaining about due weight issues as though this article isn't warranting a rewrite anyway Not just a rewrite. Major deletions would be necessary to go from this article on the changes Musk made to Twitter, to one that covers X overall. I think the most likely scenario, if this RM passes, is that these deletions will be challenged, and therefore require affirmative consensus, which has proven hard to attain when it comes to newscruft involving controversies. Which means we will have an article on X, which will be very hard to turn into a proper encyclopedic article on X. And that's if we accept that Twitter is dead and X is a separate, new service. DFlhb (talk) 20:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC) edited 23:05, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. If not Twitter as a whole, then I guess just under Musk is fine. Altendo 12:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now. Fundamentally (and in terms of legal continuity) the site is still the same, just with major refocusing of moderation, audience priorities, and obviously the rebrand. As discussed at the Twitter RM, most RS still use a FKA Twitter qualifier when writing about X, and many still just use the old name without mentioning the new one. There is also the issue that the X rebrand is not entirely chronologically synchronous with Musk's takeover, which this proposal doesn't address. Until X becomes the common name for the site, these articles should be consistent with each other. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 12:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, Twitter under Elon Musk is a history page not a general topic page (its one period of the History of Twitter)... So you could propose to move it to History of X or History of Twitter 2022-2024 but not X (social network) which feels like an end run around the community rejecting ElijahPepe proposal to move Twitter to X (social network) which was opened by Pepe on 17 May and closed on the 24th (same day this was opened). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 12:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It is presently not a general topic on X, but part of my whole proposal (first made in the previous page move request) would be to move content from Twitter to X so that it becomes a page about X as a social media service with significant different policies and wealth of criticism and controversy that are different than pre-Musk Twitter. Simply selling this idea as a page move is not capturing the full suggestion that I had. Masem (t) 12:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If it matters I oppose most of the other parts of your suggestion, but primarily because I don't think they accomplish your goals I think they do the opposite and the will leave both readers and editors worse off. Good goals though. What I don't like is the appearance of forum shopping, which one move request being opened the same day the other is closed looks like. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 12:52, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Can't address the forum shopping (I was planning over this weekend to make my proposal for formal discussion). But I question why this approach would be confusing to readers and editors. Twitter everything before the acquisition, X after, the split is extremely clean. Hatnotes and ledes to make it clear where a reader should go if they were looking for X content but landed on Twitter. Masem (t) 13:03, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thats an argument for having a History of Twitter and a History of X... Not for having neither. I appreciate that you would have done a better job of proposing the changes. I just think that fundamentally we have too much coverage we need to include to meet NPOV to do it on the main pages... Its been necessary with a lot of the other majors (History of Facebook, History of YouTube, etc) One thing I can agree with is that the timeline page is questionable (even if they seem to exist for others like Timeline of Instagram) and should be rolled into history pages where available (as it is at History of Facebook). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 13:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The problem with all these history and timeline articles on social media services is a symptom of the overall problem we tend to have with long-term events or topics that have existed past the start of Wikipedia - that editors tend to want to document every single time that event is mentioned in the news. This leads to extremely overly-detailed histories and timelines, filled with proseline that goes "On (this date), (this thing) happened." which is nowhere closer to encyclopedic writing or a summary of the topic from major sources. (our COVID articles have the same problem, for instance). Documenting the history of a social media service is definitely within our wheelhouse, but it should not be written in this fashion, and across all of those articles, much of the unnecessary details could easily be trimmed down or removed while writing a more narrative approach (such as what the early period of the main YouTube article covers). To use a better example, History of Microsoft, up until the last section, is written in a manner I would expect consist with WP's approach, and because this is a 50 year old company, it is reasonable that it is that long and split out from the main company article. Not saying that eventually X may need its own split of history, but we're being too aggressive with splitting out before need, particularly as efforts to trim down first have been made. Masem (t) 20:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    With all due respect Doc I don't see that as a problem... But if thats your diagnosis I will take it under consideration (we have gotten far from the topic under discussion so I will desist, but thank you for the philosophical and practical perspective on editorial best practices more broadly). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:52, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @ElijahPepe: was this opened because your request to move Twitter to X (social network) was rejected? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 12:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    To be fair, I wouldn't consider this forum-shopping considering the alternate proposal did gain traction but only failed to obtain a clear consensus because of the structure of the prior RM (usually, the more options there are, the more difficult it is to reach a consensus). The closer also explicitly called for further discussion regarding an article split take place after this closure. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, since the previous move on the mother page has failed, this should not be moved. Also, I feel like Twitter under Musk seems to describe the essence of the takeover better. ✶Quxyz✶ 13:33, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Horse Eye's Back. I still believe it should be Twitter that's moved to X (social network). XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 14:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment In discussions with HEB on Talk:Twitter, a fair question that one should ask themselves here is if Twitter and X are individually notable topics that merit their own standalone pages. I myself think yes, but I can also understand the position that they presentally are not, though with everything Musk has said about his intent for the platform, in time it will be harder to justify that position as he converts X into something closer to WeChat. However, that all said, if there is not consensus on that, it may be a question to asked at a future time (like at least a year from now). --Masem (t) 14:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    as he converts X into something closer to WeChat at the risk of stating the obvious, this is, so far, vaporware. Facebook added payments a decade ago and didn't turn into WeChat (nor into a "different"/successor service); the feature saw no adoption and was abandoned. Nothing says an "everything app" is possible in the West, and Twitter, with low marketshare, won't have the winner-takes-all/network effects that WeChat or even Facebook got. An "everything app" also requires more employees and higher reinvestable profits, and Twitter has gone in the opposite direction. We shouldn't let the "everything app" narrative cloud our judgment; it hasn't happened until it has. The feeling that Twitter "is dead" or "unrecognizable" is driven by the moderation changes (his motive for acquisition) and monetization (required by the debt load & ad exodus), we shouldn't mistake it for a sign that anything else changed substantively. DFlhb (talk) 20:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose because the current contents of this page is more about the transition, the controversy and the politics rather than the social network itself as a platform. Generally speaking I oppose the split because the function of the platform (thinking in terms of social role and impact) has not changed significantly after the takeover. As a somewhat quirky analogy, you don't split the White House article after every president change just because of politics. The function remains the same. It could be argued that Musk is pushing Twitter/X towards something radically different than pre-Musk Twitter, but as of today, it hasn't happened in my opinion. I acknowledge that there are many moving parts in this discussion, it's complicated, and this is why strong consensus should be reached before taking action. Matthieu Houriet (talk) 15:29, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    X is a young platform and most people don't like the changes Musk has made. Of course much of the content of an article on it would deal with transition, controversy, and politics. Naturally after the move there is a lot more that can be added to the article. Flameoguy (talk) 15:38, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Stating "most people don't like the changes Musk has made" is not WP:NPOV in my opinion. I would agree that most people (including myself) don't like the rebranding for valid, objective reasons that have been stated many times. But other changes like community notes have many supporters. Furthermore, I don't think article naming decisions should be made based on any of that. Matthieu Houriet (talk) 15:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:COMMONNAME. News articles and other online information dealing with the present site call it X now. Frankly I'm excited to see the site documented under the new name so that we can better preserve the history of the original twitter. Flameoguy (talk) 15:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Soft support with conditions:
    • This is obvious but this article needs significant re-synthesis and expansion. I'm assuming that would happen early on.
    • Significant sections from the Twitter article should be summarised into this article, including its history, with a see also link.
    • The Twitter article be eventually moved to Twitter (2006-2023), or maybe merged with Twitter, Inc., to prevent continuity issues.
I see this move request as more of a compromise than anything as keeping everything as is for now may meet WP:Article titles better. I did write this essay about why it's going to be difficult (perhaps ever) to move Twitter to X (social network) on the other move request and this option allows for an article about X without the WP:Article titles issues from moving Twitter itself. However, the Viacom (1952–2005) and Viacom (2005-2019) use parenthetical disambiguation and having two articles about the same platform may not follow WP:Notability without them.
I'm unlikely to be as active in further discussions as I'm trying to withdraw from the subject. 𝓣𝓱𝓮 𝓔𝓭𝓾𝓬𝓪𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷 𝓐𝓾𝓭𝓲𝓽𝓸𝓻 18:28, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This is an article about the management issues and controversies etc. If ANYTHING were to be moved to X (social network), it would be Twitter. Paintspot Infez (talk) 20:05, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The fact that reliable sources often say "X, formerly known as Twitter", combined with the fact that there were several months where Musk owned Twitter before deciding to rename it X, tells me that Twitter is X, just with a different name and management. Using the website myself, it doesn't feel so fundamentally different that I would describe it as being completely different. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 20:33, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't understand why this keeps happening, but please add new !votes at the bottom of the page, not randomly in the middle of the discussion. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Somewhat unrelated, but CNN has an interesting article on how and why everyone still calls it "Twitter" and not "X", though it was written before the URL change. While some people (mainly fans of Musk) have embraced the X brand, most have not. Many people, both online and in person, still call the platform Twitter, and refer to posts as tweets. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:07, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support. I believe that this page has a lot of good information that would be too much of extra details for a page named X (social network). But, I do strongly believe that there should be a page named X (social network) separate from Twitter. I feel like there are two eventual options:
  1. Move this page to X (social network) and after some time, we will realize that there are too much information in the page that would require spinning off parts of the article into a page named History of X.
  2. Move this page to History of X and start the article X (social network) from scratch.
I wanted to personally propose the latter. But right now it seems like the discussion is about a binary choice between the status quo and moving this page to X (social network). In that case, I reluctantly support the move and will just wait for the right time to propose the inevitable split I mentioned in my option #1.
Question: Is it allowed to have two parallel/dueling move requests? Can I request Twitter under Elon Musk → History of X right now? فره ور تیش (talk) 02:31, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To rename this article but not split the post-2022 related content from the original Twitter article does not make sense, hence the condition. If this was a new Twitter with the same name, I could understand the Twitter (2006–2023) naming idea brought up, but the fact that the platform service has been completely changed and renamed, there's really no justification for a Twitter (2006–2023) name when simply Twitter works to describe what the platform was when it bared that name. While I understand (and partly agree) that X is not really a WP:COMMONNAME, ultimately it is the name of the platform and as time goes on, more and more people and reliable sources have begun to use the X name, so it might as well just happen here. – Handoto (talk) 21:19, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose — I remain unconvinced there's any evidence that "Twitter" and "X" are being treated as truly distinct entities, instead of just a rebranding. News articles continue to use the terms interchangeably or refer to X as "formerly known as Twitter" in the first sentence (e.g. [1], [2]). The Twitter RM failed to establish a consensus among editors that Twitter isn't still the common name for the current website. The point of article names is to be as discoverable and reasonable for readers as possible, and I can't fathom that the average reader makes a logical distinction between Twitter and X when the average editor doesn't. A size split like this article makes sense, given the amount of information covering the acquisition and subsequent changes, but treating it like a content split does not. Dylnuge (Talk • Edits) 22:37, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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