Talk:Southern United States/Archive 4

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SouthWest

Who created this, someone from the UK, as is typical at Wiki? Oklahoma and Texas are in the Southwest USA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.229.194.130 (talk) 02:22, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Texas was part of the Confederacy. Oklahoma was a confederate sympathizer. Whoever drew this up decided they were both part of the South. Not sure I would have included Oklahoma myself just for that reason alone.
It is not unusual for non-ocean bordering states to be considered part of more than one section of the county. In fact it is unusual for most states to be in only one section. Student7 (talk) 19:56, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Several of us got together a few years ago in coming up with the maps (the details can be followed thru now archived pages). It involved quite a few considerations until a general consensus was reached. One (of many) criteria considered was the results of a 7 year Southern Focus Poll which attempted to define the South by where a clear majority of people considered themselves to live in the South and thought of themselves as Southerners. These states were the 11 of the Old Confederacy, plus Kentucky and Oklahoma.
On a related tangent, noting the OP's point about Texas and Oklahoma being in the Southwest? The thing is, the term "Southwest" is very ambiguous. In the original sense, it literally meant the western part of the larger South. Later on, when they became states, New Mexico and Arizona were also considered "Southwest." And, often, these four states were grouped into a common Southwest without regard to obvious historical and cultural differences. Texas -- and to a lesser extent, Oklahoma -- were shaped by forces from the American South. On the other hand, New Mexico and Arizona have very little "Southern" about them. In a nut-shell, Texas and Oklahoma are Southwest as in "western South." New Mexico and Arizona are Southwest as in "southern West." Two different critters! LOL TexasReb (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:44, 23 January 2011 (UTC).

Sorry, but anyone spending any time in NM and AZ will understand that Oklahoma follows southern culture and not the Southwest. Eastern OK and Texas are nothing like all of NM and AZ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kryan74 (talk • contribs) 02:49, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

There's a difference between the former Confederate States of America and their cultural sympathizers and the geographic southern United States. Of course someone will argue heritage whatever that means. This is an encyclopedia, not a leftist folklife festival. North and south are geographical terms. Toddst1 (talk) 07:43, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I live in North Carolina now, but was raised in Oklahoma, specifically Tulsa OK. I think it is far easier to understand Oklahoma as a Southwestern state than as a a Southern state. In particular, while certainly post-civil war racism existed in Oklahoma (the Tulsa race riots are a prime example) Oklahoma was not part of the Old South, was not even a state at the time, and a number of small "free black" towns existed in the Indian Territory. Secondly, I can point to many cultural icons in Oklahoma that have little to do with the South, notably the Gilcrease museum, with one of the finest collections of Western art in the country, and the Cowboy Hall of Fame in Oklahoma City. Western cultural traditions even are apparent in the clothes people wear. Rarely in North Carolina do I ever see a man wearing a bolo tie, a cowboy hat or cowboy boots, except as ironic cowboy costume, but walk through the airport in Tulsa and you are bound to see them. Finally, Native American heritage is taught in schools in Oklahoma, is celebrated culturally, and I would cautiously suggest that prejudice against Native American, while extant in Oklahoma, is balanced by a great deal of appreciation for Native culture, and celebration of Native heritage. Let's not forget that the trail of tears originated in the Old South, and ended in Oklahoma. Yes, Oklahoma is not the same as NM or AZ, but neither is it the same as North Carolina or Alabama, and I would argue that it has far more in common with Southwestern states that Southeastern states. Chris van Hasselt (talk) 15:39, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but the majority of Oklahomans consider themselves southern. The dominant culture in Oklahoma is southern. Oklahoma has much more in common with Alabama than it does Arizona. This is especially true in Southeastern Oklahoma. North Carolina is a lot different than Louisiana, but they are both states in the south. The culture is widespread and has many variations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kryan74 (talk • contribs) 22:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Interesting phrasing, saying majority of the state identifies southern and then emphasizing specifically in the southeast, I have only heard people in the southeast identify as southern. I do not think it is true that the majority identify as southerners, plus the southeast is an extremely small percentage of the state's population, less than 10%. The northwest is much more aligned Midwest, granted they make up a tiny percentage too. I am far more familiar with OKC than Tulsa but they seem to identify much more Southwest than traditional southern.

There are actual studies on the matter that you can google. One being from the University of North Carolina that indicates almost 70 percent of Okalhomans consider themselves to be southrons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.198.95.221 (talk) 19:33, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Literature

I noticed that there was a Literature section, which I believe was necessary, for that was a gap in the Southern United States that needed to be filled. Upon going back to edit and add to this section, Literature is no longer there. Did someone take it down for a specific reason? If not, I think it would be worthy to add, again.Abeat3 (talk) 19:01, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Confederate states

The states of the Confederacy need to be enumerated near the outset. That is one common definition of the South. deisenbe (talk) 19:36, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Disparity in metropolitan areas?

In the "Major metropolitan areas" section, how is it that San Antonio, TX can be listed with an MSA of 2.2 million, and NOT listed under CSA, where over half the list has less than that? Similarly: Austin,TX? Something fishy with the stats.... Hooperswim (talk) 02:19, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

West Virginia date of statehood

I have reverted two edits which pushed West Virginia statehood back to 1861 instead of 1863, the year it entered the Union. It did not split from Virginia in 1861, the process began in 1861. It was all Virginia, not just in the view of the Confederacy but also in the view of the United States government. The senators and congress men were seated in the US Congress and Senate as "VIRGINIA", not West Virginia. Over half of West Virginia voted for the Confederacy and considered itself part of Virginia. This is basis history, there should be no need for this.Dubyavee (talk) 22:37, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Missouri

So, Missouri is in the Bible Belt, but not considered in the American South? Are they any wiki-editors from Missouri who can tell us just what Missouri is (South, Midwest, West, East, North even), because an argument can be made that each corner of Missouri is identifiable with one of those zones. Could we not say that the Missouri Boot heel is considered the American South? Joltergeist (talk) 21:31, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Delaware and Maryland

The inclusion of Maryland, the District of Columbia, and Delaware as "Southern" is a complete joke. Historically they might have been Southern, but are obviously not now to any thinking person. West Virginia should not be included due to their separation, but obviously the political and cultural ties of nearly the entire state match those of the South, unlike the overpopulated, ultra-liberal enclaves of Delaware and Maryland. After the Civil War the history of those states and the South was very, very different.

It's absolutely insulting to any true Southerner to have Maryland mentioned as Southern in the same breath as Tennessee. The only people in Maryland and Delaware who actually believe the state is still Southern are leaving in droves and flocking to the real southern states of Virginia, North Carolina and Texas to escape the out-of-control taxation and one-party politics. As for the District of Columbia (ie possibly the most liberal city in the country the capital of the Union with Union monuments in every square and nary a southern accent in earshot). The 100 year old Census designation is not the only designation in existence and is very outdated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.122.2.210 (talk) 21:28, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Relevant Wikipedia Visiting Scholars opportunity at Rollins College

Of potential interest to editors/watchers of this page, Rollins College is looking to sponsor a Wikipedia Visiting Scholar to improve articles in one or more of the following topics, and in particular these topics as they relate to the South in general or Florida in particular: American writers; American literature's connections with feminism, desegregation, the civil rights movement, environmentalism, or political activism; late 19th and early 20th century development, urbanization, and tourism; connections between the South and Cuba in the early 20th century, especially in higher education.

This is a great way to get access to university library databases and other resources while making an impact in areas you may already contribute to. For more information, including an overview of library resources, see Rollins College's Visiting Scholars page. Thanks. --Ryan (Wiki Ed) (talk) 14:27, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Major cities?

More relevant than metropolitan areas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.217.103.193 (talk) 17:25, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

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Updated population tables

Hey everyone I updated the tables to represent the data from 2015 as well as adding the 20 largest cities located within the south. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danny20111993 (talk • contribs) 04:50, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

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Presidents from the South

Is this supposed to be based on where the individual was born, where the individual was raised, or where the individual became active in politics? The lists would vary quite a bit depending on which criterion is used. Currently the paragraph is mixed, excluding the Southern born Wilson as he spent most of his life in the North but including the Bushes who were born in New England but became politically active in Texas. The paragraph should either settle on one strict definition or cover each option separately and in full. --Khajidha (talk) 11:47, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Update to American Football attendance figures.

Off the top of my head, Atlanta Falcons and Houston Texans should be included in the list of most attended venues. List needs revision. I would assume that the Tennessee Titans, Jacksonville Jaguars, Miami Dolphins, New Orleans Saints, and Tampa Bay Bucs would be higher than some of the listed college teams. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Youngbloodaggie (talk • contribs) 19:16, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

2018 populations for cities, metros, and CSA

I've updated the info in regards to population centers for the south, out of curiosity though should we also include the southern states and their populations as well? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danny20111993 (talk • contribs) 19:49, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Southernization

Is there a reason that this term is presented as fact? It is purely theoretical in nature and looking at its page, it has basis only in the opinion of a few, not indisputable fact. It should be presented as theoretical. Even the citation is an opinion piece for Newsweek. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.240.224.208 (talk) 18:44, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2019

Please add "Also, Missouri is disputed between the South and Midwest." at end of 2nd paragraph. Reliable sources would be Council of State Governments and Census Bureau. Philosopher Spock (talk) 19:15, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 19:24, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Antebellum years: slavery v tariffs

I don't want to make any misguided edits on a somewhat controversial subject, but I am wondering if the Antebellum years section has an undue weight placed one of the two "political issues" (i.e. too much weight on tariffs). I noticed all the sources in that section have a title implying their main subject matter is slavery, however, this section seems to downplay or skim over slavery, except for a few facts, and implies tariffs were a more important primary reason for secession and the war (it's counter to what I thought, but, I also haven't delved into any real historical sources on the subject myself). I also noticed some euphemism sounding language (in a bad way) such as in this phrase "one million enslaved Africans were transported to the Deep South in forced migration" which sounded a bit odd (in my subjective view, of course). I'm not an expert on this subject or familiar with a variety of sources, but I thought I'd point this out in case it's helpful to improving the article. Pythagimedes (talk) 01:20, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

El Paso and Miami

Should we remove El Paso from the list of cities? I've heard people usually say that only east Texas is part of the South, while the west half is more Southwestern. As for Florida it's generally thought that only the north such as Jacksonville and the Panhandle are considered Southern while the Miami is mostly Caribbean. Malcolmmwa (talk) 00:37, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Edit: The dividing line is unclear, but it is generally accepted that El Paso is not Southern. The same goes for Miami. Malcolmmwa (talk) 01:57, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Other States

This source considers the following states that are not included in the Census Bureau's definition to be Southern states:

Maryland and Delaware are not Southern states at all! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:581:C000:DC90:F8D4:D6E5:92E0:F5A4 (talk) 06:06, 17 January 2021 (UTC) The Northeastern image includes Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, Washington, D.C., and West Virginia, which are not included in the Census Bureau's definition, in lighter shades. Should we add these states in lighter shades? GamerKiller2347 (talk) 03:01, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

No. That is an online poll and not a reliable source. Dubyavee (talk) 03:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

States listed in Infobox

While there have been many discussions about which states are southern states, and there are multiple legitimate answers, I don't see any past discussion about which states should be listed in the Infobox. I would propose that the United States Census Bureau list be used, because that list is first in the "Geography" section and I would think the Census Bureau is the most authoritative source of US political regions and divisions. The second list, from the Council of State Governments, adds Missouri to the Census Bureau's list, but only in the context of its organizational regions. --hulmem (talk) 22:17, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

  • @Hulmem: The United States Census Bureau refers to DC as the District of Columbia, so in my opinion I am seeing a double-standard in your policy. And since the United States Census Bureau does sometimes include Missouri, "but only in the context of its organizational regions," I think that just adds more reason to include Missouri. Missouri is considered to be a Southern State pretty much as often as Oklahoma, Maryland, Delaware, and the District of Columbia. The Missouri Compromise was a symbolic reestablishment of the North-South divide after the Mason-Dixon Line, not to mention that Missouri was claimed by the Confederate States of America while Maryland, Delaware, and the District of Columbia were not. Maybe we could have separate lists between the official Southern states and the transitional Southern states.

--HyettsTheGamer2 (talk) 20:38, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

  • @Hulmen: I retract my first message about the District of Columbia, I see you agreed with me on that. I want to let you know that I have tried adding Missouri again, though with discretion. I'm wondering if this would be fine with you.

--HyettsTheGamer2 (talk) 23:09, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

I think your addition of "(depending on criteria)" works well. --hulmem (talk) 02:35, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Using only the Census Bureau definition gives undue weight to Delaware as being part of the South

As per the List of regions of the United States, the Standard Federal Regions, the Federal Reserve System, the United States courts of appeals, the Bureau of Economic Analysis, the Agricultural Research Service, the U.S. National Park Service all include Delaware in regional groupings with Pennsylvania & New Jersey. The Census Bureau is an outlier in associating Delaware with the South.

Typically the OMB is considered the authority on geographical groupings. As mentioned at List of regions of the United States#Standard Federal Regions, The ten standard federal regions were established by OMB (Office of Management and Budget) Circular A-105, "Standard Federal Regions", in April 1974, and required for all executive agencies. The OMB's Region III is composed of Delaware, District of Columbia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, West Virginia. Neither Delaware nor Pennsylvania is part of the South.

To only rely on the Census Bureau in its definition of the South is to give undue weight to the inclusion of Delaware. This would be historically inaccurate, as when Delaware became a British colony it was then called "the Lower Counties on the Delaware" by the Duke of York. This was separate from his deed for Pennsylvania. Delaware was governed as part of Pennsylvania from 1682 until 1701. [...] At that time, the Lower Counties petitioned for and were granted an independent colonial legislature; the two colonies shared the same governor until 1776. The one state that Delaware is inexorably associated with is Pennsylvania, especially since it shares the same side of the Delaware River (New Jersey is on the other side). Peaceray (talk) 21:27, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

A number of sources and their corresponding lists are included in the article text. You could consider adding the OMB information to the article text, however: (1) You state that "typically the OMB is considered the authority on geographical groupings" but don't reference any authoritative source; (2) OMB Circular A-105 defines geographic regions for federal administrative purposes and doesn't even define a "Southern United States" region; and (3) as noted in the referenced WP article, the OMB Circular A-105 was rescinded in 1995, so I don't see how it can still have any validity. I think some editors are conflating geographical regions created by various organizations for administrative purposes with "Southern United States". As it says in the article, there is no universally accepted definition of which states comprise "Southern United States". Also, consider that the similar WP articles Western United States, Midwestern United States, and Northeastern United States all reference the Census Bureau definitions as the primary source. —hulmem (talk) 08:49, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
While it may be open to question at the macro level who is the primary arbitrator as to what constitutes a region, OMB certainly sets the standard for statistical areas, at least according to the Census Bureau.
  • Bureau, US Census (2020-12-16). "Metropolitan and Micropolitan". The United States Census Bureau. Retrieved 2021-01-21. The United States Office of Management and Budget (OMB) delineates metropolitan and micropolitan statistical areas according to published standards that are applied to Census Bureau data.
  • Bureau, US Census (2020-04-02). "Delineation Files". The United States Census Bureau. Retrieved 2021-01-21. Metropolitan and micropolitan statistical areas are delineated by the U.S. Office of Management and Budget (OMB) and are the result of the application of published standards to Census Bureau data.
Peaceray (talk) 21:25, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
Also noting that both Northeastern United States#Composition & Mid-Atlantic (United States)#Defining the Mid-Atlantic have a robust discussion about the inclusion or exclusion of Delaware. I personally find Southern United States#Geography to be muddled. Perhaps this is the nature of the beast, but I would hope for better clarity. Peaceray (talk) 21:50, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
The Census map is the most useful map for the article. There used to be a shaded map some years ago but it had no reliable source and generated edit wars. The census map is used widely as a reference and is generally recognized though not always accepted, but you have to have something and this is the most reliable. The article also addresses historical issues of the south and thus Delaware, as one of the original Civil War era slave states, is included. Even more recently Delaware was one of the original states affected by the Brown v Board of Education as a state with legislated school segregation. If you look at the map of those states it is identical to the census definition of the southern states, though it includes Missouri. I think any issues regarding Delaware should be addressed within the article rather than ditching the entire map just for that reason. You should not make such changes without further discussions here with other editors.Dubyavee (talk) 05:21, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Area?

How come there is no datum on the total area of the region? Forich (talk) 16:46, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Missouri, Missouri, Missouri

How is at least part of Missouri not considered Southern? Most of Maryland is further North than Missouri and yet it’s classified as Southern? Even though it, like Missouri, is as a border state on the Civil War? At least the Boot-heel region of Missouri should be classified as Southern.108.161.120.182 (talk) 00:31, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

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