Talk:North Macedonia/Archive 21

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Name

why wiki is reffered to that country as Macedonia and not FYROM Greek1926 (talk) 18:15, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Because we go by what an independent country calls itself. El_C 18:20, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
So does Greece have the right,as an independent country,to name its self Illyria(as an example)?The answer is no,because the SCIENCE of history clearly separates the region and nation of Illyrians from Greeks.So purely driven by strong scientific evidences we come to the conclusion that Macedons were Greek (an obvious arguement about that is that macedons were allowed to participate at the Olympic games and to enter the sacred temples,were only Greeks were allowed).Now for the region of Macedonia.Macedonia at time of Alexander was approximatelly a land of 2 million square miles,stretching all the way from Pella to India.After the Rome expansion,macedonia was a vast region stretching from Adriatic sea to Thessaloniki.Does that mean that Indians or Illyrians have the right to claim that they are macedons because they were part of a region that was called Macedonia?The answer is clearly no.You dont identify your identity just by the region that you were borned.Its history that identify your identity and thats very crucial.FYROM is a multicultural country,aparted from Slavs,Albanians,Bulgarians and Greeks.Why a multicultural country wants to form a nation by claiming that they are macedonians and that macedonians were never greek? Chericko (talk) 23:57, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
Actually, it does. There is no science that dictates what countries can call themselves PepperBeast (talk) 02:27, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
Your argument, Chericko, makes no sense. Why is Nigeria called "Nigeria"? There is no "Nigerian" ethnic group or common "Nigerian" history. It's called Nigeria artificially because the Niger River reaches the sea there. The name didn't exist before the British started trading and slaving along the coast there. There is no inherent reason why that had to remain their name. At independence countries all along the west coast of Africa changed their names and got new ones: Dahomey > Benin, Gold Coast > Ghana, Southern Rhodesia > Zimbabwe, Northern Rhodesia > Zambia, Congo > Zaire, Upper Volta > Burkina Faso, etc., etc., etc. Countries get to decide what their name is. It is their right as an independent people. Greece does not own the copyright to "Macedonia" despite what the Hellenic government says. --Taivo (talk) 03:05, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

PepperBeast-I didnt say that there is a science that dictates something like that,i said that science and specific the science of history clearifys the identity of a nation.Thank you Chericko (talk) 05:21, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Taivo-Well although i understand your point of view,i will have to disagree in two main factors: 1.Your example about Nigeria (at the rest colonies) is not the same as with Macedon.Macedonia is a regional term for more than 2000 years,so we cannot compare these two. 2.Its not the Greek goverment,but the greek people who cannot tolerate the statements of FYROM. P.S.Let us not forget for once more that even the name MACEDON means in ancient Greek highlander.As you see I prefer to adress my arguements with historical evidences,i think is most preferable by just arguing with statements that just came out of our mind. Chericko (talk) 05:32, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

than something that* Chericko (talk) 05:40, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Your argument is still ridiculous and baseless. History gives no country or people the "right" to a name. There is no historical or ethnic copyright to any placename whatsoever. That's why there is a Moscow in Idaho, a Paris in Texas, a Moab in Utah, etc. Moscow, Russia has no more exclusive right to its historical name than Greece has the exclusive right to "Macedonia". The inhabitants of a place can call it whatsoever they want. Period. I think I'll call my front lawn "Macedonia". Neither you nor the Greek government can do a damned thing to stop me. I don't care how much outrage the Greek people might feel towards me or the inhabitants of Macedonia, Georgia or Macedonia, Romania or the Republic of Macedonia. The Greeks have zero rights to the name--historical or otherwise. The meaning of the name doesn't make any difference either. "Macedonia" doesn't mean anything in English or in Romanian or in Macedonian. So what? "France" doesn't mean anything in French either. Your argument is simply ridiculous Greek nationalism without any legal basis. --Taivo (talk) 08:58, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
But as entertaining as it is to demonstrate how baseless your comment is, the name of Macedonia is fixed in Wikipedia per WP:MOSMAC, which is based on an extensive discussion at WP:ARBMAC. That discussion included representative editors from all sides of the issue. --Taivo (talk) 09:06, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
The name agreed for use in Wikipedia is the constitutional name for the country. There may be a dispute with Greece, but this cannot dictate how the country refers itself. Please take your time to update yourself over the naming conventions and rules set in Wikipedia (in the links Taivo gave you) regarding the proper references to that country in the articles. --SILENTRESIDENT 16:54, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Rename?

Should this article be renamed from "Republic of Macedonia" to "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", the term used by the United Nations, the European Union, the Council of Europe and NATO? Or does the name it calls itself take precedence? See Macedonia naming dispute. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:32, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia). Cheers! — Tom(T2ME) 11:37, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
(ec) This was decided in a big community discussion and with an Arbcom-backed authoritative consensus outcome in 2009, see WP:NCMAC. You'd have to provide some very strong arguments that the situation has somehow changed if you wanted to revisit that consensus now. What takes precedence is not so much "the name it calls itself" (althouth to some extent that too counts), but the name it's called by independent reliable sources. (Personally, I'd say that if any renaming were to be put on the agenda, it would be that from "Republic of Macedonia" to plain "Macedonia", but that would probably also still be quite contentious). Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:39, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! No need to revisit the issue. I just wasn't aware that we had a guideline and a prior arbcom case (Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2) on this. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:55, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Proposed change to the infobox

Do I mind if I could add the provisional name "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" to the infobox since the "Republic of Macedonia" is an constitutional name? Supreme Dragon (talk) 17:37, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

No way, see WP:MOSMAC. --T*U (talk) 18:07, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
You, Supreme Dragon, may not mind, but the rest of us do, and that's what matters. "The former [little f] Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is not a "name". It is the provisional reference used by the United Nations so that they don't have to say, "That country north of Greece that we can't call by its own name because Greece objects". It is not a "name", official or otherwise. It is an approved descriptive phrase only because Greece doesn't like Macedonia's actual name. That's why the "f" in "former" is not capitalized--because it's not a name or title, but a reference phrase only. The infobox is for names only. --Taivo (talk) 18:35, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2017

Pdsaodkapsdasd (talk) 10:22, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

This country is officionally recognised as FYROM and there is not any country named Republic of Macedonia. Please fix it .

 Not done Per WP:MOSMAC. -- AxG / ✉  13:13, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2017

Pdsaodkapsdasd (talk) 10:26, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Instead of Republic of Macedonia change it to FYROM or Skopje.

 Not done Per WP:MOSMAC. -- AxG / ✉  13:13, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2017

Frankensteinvp (talk) 11:01, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 11:51, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
This was another of the endless string of requests to change the name of this article in violation of WP:MOSMAC. Still not done. --Taivo (talk) 16:07, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

WRONG DATES OF PUPULATION

Hello, when you look at http://www.stat.gov.mk/OblastOpsto_en.aspx?id=2, you'll find this: According to population estimates (on 30.06.2016), the Republic of Macedonia has 2 072 490 inhabitants, and the population density is 80.6 inhabitants per km2.. best regards -- Drahdiwaberling (talk) 21:51, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Woof? Best wishes DBaK (talk) 21:56, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Christian v. "Other Christian"

The data from the graph comes from a source (CIA ...). They may use these categories, so the quote is correct. It is possible that the info is based on a census, where people can nominate their religion, some Eastern Orthodox Christians may choose to nominate as "Christian" rather than giving an alternative. Unless you have further reliable sources I can not accept your edit. Brunswicknic (talk) 11:22, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Uhm, did you even check the source? It only took a few seconds to verify that the CIA source actually does say "other Christian" rather than just "Christian" [1]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Snarky. No I didn't check the source, your previous edit did not say that you had either, it claimed to be an attack on perceived bias. As now you say you have checked the source, and say that the source says "other christian", then that is fine by me Brunswicknic (talk) 12:07, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Official language

The Albanian language needs to be added as an official language of macedonia George kastrioti (talk) 19:01, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2017

There is no such thing as the Republic of Macedonia. This page should be called FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia). 96.68.34.105 (talk) 21:38, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. SparklingPessimist Scream at me! 21:44, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
Will not be done actually, per WP:MOSMAC. --Taivo (talk) 00:07, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 August 2017

The "Politics" section needs to be edited to reflect the outcome of the latest elections, such as the formation of a new Cabinet, and the election of a new President (Speaker) of the Parliament. This section still says that the Prime Minister is Nikola Gruevski, that the ruling party is VMRO-DPMNE (IMRO-DPMNU) and that the President of Parliament is Trajko Veljanoski, which is outdated information, as the current Prime Minister is Zoran Zaev, Leader of SDSM (SDUM) and the current President of Parliament is Talat Xhaferi.

http://vlada.mk/pretsedatel https://www.sobranie.mk/biography.nspx TsarPeter (talk) 18:46, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The sources we ask for should describe the outcome of these elections. The biographies of the two individuals are considered unreliable, as these will change in years time. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 03:17, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/06/zoran-zaev-wins-confidence-vote-form-goverment-170601065207690.html http://www.balkaneu.com/tension-in-skopje-talat-xhaferi-is-elected-assembly-speaker-in-a-situation-of-chaos/ Here are sources on the confidence vote and the election of the speaker.

Done jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 20:23, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Official Language

Also Albanian needs to be changed from recognized to Official language of Rebublic of Macedonia the law was pasted in FYROM months ago. George kastrioti (talk) 21:23, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Do you have a source for this change? PepperBeast (talk) 22:10, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

This is very sloppy

The demographics section is merged into one section. Ususlly the culture section is seperate. As well as many other sections. PaulG524 (talk) 22:49, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

I have no intention of responding to your comment Woscafrench (talk) 22:59, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)

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Semi-protected edit request on 2 November 2017

83.84.34.117 (talk) 16:20, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
No per WP:MOSMAC and bad spelling in the request. There already is a page Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, but it's a redirect (as it should be) back to this page. --Taivo (talk) 16:23, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

First sentence

Is there a reason for the article to begin "Macedonia, officially the Republic of Macedonia..."? When an article title is the same as the subject's full name, it normally begins with that name. For example, we don't have "Harry Truman, officially Harry S. Truman..." in the Harry S. Truman article; we have "Harry S. Truman [years] was an American statesman...", and likewise it seems to me that this article should be something like "The Republic of Macedonia is a country...". Am I missing something? The hatnote should be sufficient to distinguish it from the Greek region, the general area of the south Balkans, and other issues that have prompted the naming dispute. Nyttend (talk) 20:21, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Good point. The current wording is a relic of the days when the fight was over "Macedonia" versus "FYROM" and "Republic of Macedonia" became the compromise article title after WP:ARBMAC2. --Taivo (talk) 00:44, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Actually, the present format seems to be in line with a lot of other European country articles that have both a plain name and an official constitutional title involving "Republic of" or the like (cf. Germany, Poland, Croatia, Greece and others). That said, something needs to be reduced about the number of glosses/translations/transcriptions; there are now no fewer than ten name variants listed before the definition sentence even starts. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:13, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
It seems there is a good momentum between the current governments in both countries for resolving the name dispute within 2018; needless to say, in the event of a solution, the abbreviation FYROM should be removed alltogether from the lead and have it mentioned only in the history section or where appropriate. --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 17:56, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not objective

The name dispute is not a matter of self-identification but a matter of hetero-identification. There is no connection between Slavic speaking countries and Macedonia. Ancient Macedonians Spoke Greek. Modern Macedonians Speak Greek. “The Macedonia naming dispute is a political dispute regarding the use of the name Macedonia between the southeastern European countries of Greece and the Republic of Macedonia”. When you call FYROM “Macedonia”, you have chosen FYROM’s side. D.M. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.5.23 (talk) 01:23, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

This has been settled over at WP:MOSMAC. PepperBeast (talk) 08:49, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2018

Andrew1456 (talk) 18:46, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Please Do Correct the title and everything wrongly mentioned and not with the official name which is: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, F.Y.R.O.M. as you are also writing inside.

Not done Per WP:MOSMAC NeilN talk to me 18:50, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2018

Official name of the country in the United nations is Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia also known with the abbreviation FYRoM

Please change Republic of Macedonia to Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, officially F.Y.R.o M

Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (/ˌmæsɪˈdoʊniə/ (About this sound listen) MAS-ih-DOH-nee-ə; Macedonian: Македонија, tr. Makedonija, IPA: [makɛˈdɔnija]), officially F.Y.R.o M. Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (Macedonian: About this sound Република Македонија (help·info), tr. Republika Makedonija), is a country in the Balkan peninsula in Southeast Europe. It is one of the successor states of the former Yugoslavia, from which it declared independence in 1991. It became a member of the United Nations in 1993, but, as a result of an ongoing dispute with Greece over the use of the name "Macedonia", was admitted under the provisional description the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia[10][11] (sometimes abbreviated as FYROM and FYR Macedonia), a term that is also used by international organizations such as the European Union,[12] the Council of Europe,[13] and NATO.[14]

Extended content

The issue of the name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is not just a dispute over historical facts or symbols. It concerns the conduct of a UN member state, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, which contravenes the fundamental principles of international law and order; specifically, respect for good neighbourly relations, sovereignty and territorial integrity.

The name issue is thus a problem with regional and international dimensions, consisting in the promotion of irredentist and territorial ambitions on the part of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, mainly through the counterfeiting of history and usurpation of Greece’s national, historical and cultural heritage.

The name issue arose in 1991, when the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia seceded from Yugoslavia and declared its independence under the name “Republic of Macedonia”.

Historically, the term “Macedonia”, which is a Greek word, refers to the Kingdom and culture of the ancient Macedonians, who belong to the Hellenic nation and are unquestionably part of Greek historical and cultural heritage.

Geographically, the term “Macedonia” refers to a wider region extending into the current territory of various Balkan countries, with the largest part of the region being in Greece and smaller sections in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Bulgaria and Albania. The core of what was ancient Macedonia lies within contemporary Greek borders, comprises the northern portion of the Greek state, and is called Macedonia. Some 2.5 million Greeks reside in this region today and they and their forebears have considered and called themselves Macedonians through the centuries.

The roots of the name issue go back to the mid-1940s, when, in the aftermath of the Second World War, Commander in Chief Tito separated from Serbia the region that had been known until that time as Vardar Banovina (today’s Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), giving it the status of a federal unit of the new Socialist Federal Republic of Macedonia, renaming it, initially, the “People’s Republic of Macedonia”, and, later, the “Socialist Republic of Macedonia”. At the same time, he started to cultivate the idea of a separate and discrete “Macedonian nation”.

Tito of course had many reasons for making these moves, the main one being to lay the foundations for future Yugoslavian territorial claims in the wider region of Macedonia and secure an opening on the Aegean. Tito’s intentions in the wider Macedonian region had been confirmed as early as 1944, when he declared publicly that his goal was to reunify “all the sections of Macedonia that were broken up in 1912 and 1913 by the Balkan imperialists.”

A December 1944 State Department dispatch to the U.S. authorities, signed by the US Secretary of State at the time, Stettinius, noted, among other things, that “This [US] Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonian "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic, nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”

Against this historical background, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia declared its independence in 1991, basing its existence as an independent state on the artificial and spurious notion of the “Macedonian nation”, which was cultivated systematically through the falsification of history and the exploitation of ancient Macedonia purely for reasons of political expediency.

Greece reacted strongly to the theft of its historical and cultural heritage and the treacherous territorial and irredentist intentions of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and the issue came before the UN Security Council, which, in two resolutions [817(1993) and 845(1993)] recommended that a settlement be found quickly, for the sake of peaceful relations and good neighbourliness in the region.

In 1993, following a recommendation from the Security Council, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia was accepted, by decision of the General Assembly, into the United Nations under this provisional name, until such time as an agreed solution is reached.

In 1995, Greece and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia concluded an Interim Accord, which imposed a binding “code of conduct”.

Based on the Interim Accord, the two sides began negotiations under the auspices of the UN. These negotiations have continued to this day.

In the time that has elapsed since the signing of the Interim Accord, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has systematically violated the letter and spirit of the Accord, as well as the obligations deriving from it:

• by promoting territorial designs against Greece through the portrayal on maps, in school books, in history books, etc., of Greek territory as being within the territory of a “greater” Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, in violation of articles 2, 3, 4 and 7.1;

• by supporting irredentist claims and inciting nationalistic feeling within Greece, in violation of article 6.2;

• by using the name “Republic of Macedonia” in international organizations – including the United Nations – that it has joined under the condition that it use the provisional name “Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”, in violation of the relevant commitments provided for in article 11.1 (even from the podium of the 62nd UN General Assembly, the then-president of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Branko Crvenkovski, stated that “the name of my country is and shall remain the Republic of Macedonia”);

Andrew1456 (talk) 00:05, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

No, per WP:MOSMAC. --Taivo (talk) 00:08, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
@Andrew1456: Wikipedia is not ruled by the United Nations, it is ruled by the WP:consensus of its editors, based on the preponderance of WP:reliable sources. And, the consensus says it is Republic of Macedonia. Vanjagenije (talk) 19:52, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2018

Change from Theomech (talk) 00:48, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. NeilN talk to me 00:54, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 February 2018

Marcuspenney (talk) 08:04, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Vanjagenije (talk) 09:32, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Meaningless sentence

"Macedonia's history dates back to antiquity"

What is "Macedonia" here? The region? The region within the 1991 border? The legal entity that exists since 1991? The people that live there? The people that have passports from the 1991 legal entity?

The only thing that could make sense here is "This region has been historically relevant since antiquity". Do not use terms like "Macedonia" that could mean many things, be specific otherwise you cannot differentiate between "Egypt's history dates back to antiquity" and what you've written, yet they mean completely different things. author (talk) 12:27, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2018

Please change the name of macedonia to SKOPIA or FYROM. thank you Zamalanasu (talk) 22:48, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Consult wp:ARBMAC. Wikipedia refers to the country as the Republic of Macedonia.Resnjari (talk) 22:56, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Albanian Language

For an information, this Law is not signed by President and it is not effective yet, so as relevant source is Official Newsletter of the country, and not news. As every Wikipedian language version, English one have to wait for this. Also, it is not so precise that this means Albanian is second official language. --Ehrlich91 (talk) 21:36, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree. The law has not been signed yet and it does not make the Albanian a second official language, it extends its usage in the institutions. For the Albanian to become second official language the Constitution must be changed. As of today, I'd like to rely on the Constitution when adding citations, not some websites with sensationalist headlines. Macedonicus (talk) 19:24, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
I agree, especially as both Albanian and Macedonian media have been reporting it in sensationalist ways one way or the other. Until the final law is in place (if it even gets there), only then can this issue been worked out more clearly for wiki pages on Macedonia etc. Best.Resnjari (talk) 08:12, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
Even it the law is signed, that does not make Albanian official as Macedonian. The law is about all minority languages and it just improves the usage of the languages. The constitution is not changed, hence the Macedonian is sole official language. Best--MacedonianBoy (talk) 09:02, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
Let's wait about the final juridical solution of that issue. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 10:07, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
ok. Even if not made as an official language throughout the state, but it relates to greater institutional usage of Albanian, a few additions on that will be needed as updates to some articles on Macedonia and its Albanians after whatever happens in the courts etc. Best.Resnjari (talk) 10:22, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
Of course, the info about all languages and their improvement regarding the state affairs should be updated. However, the only official language is MK.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 14:24, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
The information about the Albanian language should be updated as soon as it is promulgated in the Public Enterprise Official Gazette of the Republic of Macedonia. It will be effective several days after (usually a week). From what I see in the draft of the law it will be official language throughout the state, not just regionally. It will not have absolutely the same status as the Macedonian language, but it will be definitely the 2nd official language of the state. Note that "Official languages" parameter of the template is not only for the languages recognized in the constitution, but for the ones recognized in legislation as well. It will be good if the section "Languages" is extended, explaining the agreement from 2001, the laws from 2008, 2011 and the current one including the differences between Macedonian and Albanian regarding it's coverage. Maybe a table with the data will illustrate that best. --StanProg (talk) 15:33, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
The President Ivanov has vetoed the law. Jingiby (talk) 04:38, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Albanian editors may not like what i say, but as President Ivanov vetoed the law and following parliamentary procedure it will have to go back for a vote, along with there being a challenge to the supreme court, its best to hold off on any big changes in Wikipedia. The supreme court may be a big indicator of the future of the language law in what form it finally takes as parliament will need to make sure it aligns with its decision and the constitution. This matter still has some way to go before it resolved. Until that time as editors we should just watch the situation until there is certainty from all sides, so as to avoid any headaches here with editing. Best.Resnjari (talk) 04:19, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

The proposed law will make Albanian an official language throughout the country. Parliament will soon vote on the law again. If parliament passes the law for the second time the President will be forced to sign the bill. At this point, the official languages section must be updated to include the language. Many biased users may try to remove the language from the official languages so please watch for this.Vepton (talk) 21:14, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

@Vepton, until its enacted and not subject to further challenges etc, we wait and keep track of proceedings via the media. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:40, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Again, the law has not been signed or enforced, so revert the changes to the Official languages part in the infobox. Besides, the law makes Albanian official in government and parliament usage, it does not make it equal to the Macedonian, hence the additional law. In international relations Macedonian remains the only official language. So, a better formulation needs to be applied, Macedonian as an official language for internal and external usage and Albanian as official for limited internal usage. Second official means equal to the Macedonian, and that is not the case.Macedonicus (talk) 08:11, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

It does in fact make Albanian the second official language of the country in accordance with the Ohrid Agreement. Section 6.5 states "Any other language spoken by at least 20 percent of the population is also an official language, as set forth herein." Also, according to the "Concise Oxford Companion to the English Language", an official language is a language that is given a special legal status in a particular country, state, or other jurisdiction. This is also in Wikipedia's definition of the term Official language. Thus it would be contradictory to Wikipedia and the Oxford to not label Albanian as an official language. Therefore, according to said definition, the Ohrid Agreement, and the Legislation passed on 14 March 2018, the second official language of the Republic of Macedonia is Albanian.Vepton (talk) 15:13, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
@Vepton:, lets wait for the full processes to occur before we change things. The constitutional court has yet to hear this case, as the opposition will this time take the matter there, not to mention that the president has refused to sign it. Until then this issue has some time yet to run its course.Resnjari (talk) 16:09, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
In my comment above I've provided indisputable evidence as to why it is an Official language. Once adopted there is no reason to not label this in the official languages section. This is a sensitive topic and editing based on emotion rather than fact will obviously be present, and we may need administrative assistance.Vepton (talk) 16:20, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
@Vepton:, a proper resolution may happened till probably mid year or even the latter part of the year. Its a complex issue. On my part i actually think the opposition should take this legislation to the constitutional court, as whatever ruling is given all sides must then abide by and if changes need to be done to that law then so be it, if not the arguments for not letting the law pass become null and void. Best.Resnjari (talk) 16:27, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
@Vepton:, the law is not above the Constitution and the law does not make Albanian equal to Macedonian per se. Article 1 says "Macedonian language and its script is the official language through the entire area of Macedonia and in international relations". Article 2 says "Other official language spoken by at least 20% of the population is also an official language as per this law". So yes, Albanian is de jure official as well, but not through the entire territory and not in the international relations. The law basically extends the usage in the Parliament and Government institutions, nothing more. If Albanian was second official the constitution and law would have an article that would say "Macedonian and Albanian are the official languages through the entire territory and in international relations" and there would be no need for a Law on the usage of the minority languages such as this one. Macedonicus (talk) 14:19, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
@Macedonicus: Please, read the my comment on this topic from "15:33, 17 January 2018 (UTC)". It's explained pretty well. --StanProg (talk) 18:31, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
@Macedonicus: According to the "Concise Oxford Companion to the English Language" which is cited by Wikipedia in its definition of an Official language it is not a requirement to be in the constitution. Also, the current legislation does in fact denote it as an official language throughout the territory contrary to your statement above. Please read mine and @StanProg: comments above thoroughly as your counterpoints are not addressing our points.Vepton (talk) 19:18, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
@Vepton: @StanProg: Guys, I've read the law. It's all in the semantics/wording. Everything remains the same except for the extended usage of the Albanian language. The media are in a frenzy/panic mode on both sides so they come up with sensationalist headlines such as "Albanian is the second official language". If Wikipedia starts regarding Albanian as second official language of Macedonia that would be misleading. The country has one official (службен) language for the entire territory, the recognized minority languages can act as official when they reach the census of 20%. So, in some municipalities Turkish or Romani are also official, but if some day they reach the percentage of 20%, they will also have an extended usage in government/assembly. Like it or not, Albanian remains a minority language with limited official usage. Macedonicus (talk) 19:57, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
@Macedonicus: I've also read the law and it makes the Albanian language 2nd official (службен) on the whole territory of the Republic of Macedonia. "Official languages" parameter in Template:Infobox country is descibed as "Languages recognised in legislation, constitution, etc.". Albanian language is not recognizied by the constitution as official, but this law makes it regognized "in legislation". It's described pretty well in Article 1 of the law. --StanProg (talk) 21:04, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
@Macedonicus: Please leave opinions out of the discussion. Suggesting that all news sources on the topic are erroneous based on your belief is unjustifiable. Please reread mine and @StanProg: comments above thoroughly as they explain the rationale for instilling the language in the official language section. Vepton (talk) 21:18, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Guys lets just wait, the situation is still fluid before any possible changes are made. The opposition has also said they might take this matter to the constitutional court. Its a sensitive issue, and its best it does not devolve into a edit war situation here. There is news, there is time until we have something concrete as a final resolution. Best.Resnjari (talk) 04:45, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
Reading the law as it is is not my opinion, it is reading a factual legal matter. The media can say whatever they want to say, the law is clear enough to provide a distinction between the usage of the country language and the minority languages. 1. Macedonian remains the only official language through the entire territory of Macedonia and for international usage. (if Albanian was second official then the law would state that every citizen's ID card/Passport and/or other document would have the Albanian version of their name, but it's not, hence it's an optional language, the default ID card/passport would contain Macedonian, English (and French)). 2. Albanian is official language in: Parliament, Municipalities where Albanians constitute +20%, Government institutions, Ministries, Police/Health (only in Municipalities where they constitute +20%). 3. Turkish is official language in some municipalities. 4. Aromanian/Vlach is official language in some municipalities. 5. Serbian is official language in some municipalities. 6. Romani is official language in some municipalities. So in recap, the law expands the usage of the Albanian language in the government institutions and parliament and it does not equalize to the Macedonian language. There is no need for potential changes on the Wikipedia page, there can be a change in the infobox where the minority languages would be classified as National languages/Official languages on a municipal/higher level. Those are the facts. Macedonicus (talk) 19:40, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
@Macedonicus:, that's kind of my understanding as well of the law. Media of both sides have placed a interpretation that in some instance has resulted in hyperbole. Overall the law is still not a done deal. Part of the opposition is saying is might go to the constitutional court, while the president is still maintaining a veto for now. For all that have commented here, its got a long way to go and the best we can do now is just keep an eye out on the matter. Best.Resnjari (talk) 19:57, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
@Macedonicus: What you described is current legislation whereas we are discussing the new legislation. I am unsure if you are reading our comments above as you are not providing any counterpoints so let me summarize. According to the AFP the "Macedonian parliament on Wednesday passed a law bolstering official use of the Albanian language in the Balkan country". Their statement also goes on to state: "The new law will increase the use of Albanian at a national level, including in administrative, health, judicial, police and other official matters." [1] This new legislation is what StanProg and I are discussing. The official languages parameter in the Template:Infobox country states that the following languages should be included: "Languages recognized in legislation, constitution, etc.". If you object, please provide evidence to counter these points rather than dismissing all media reports on the topic based on your opinion. Vepton (talk) 14:17, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi everybody. As Vepton states above: According to the AFP the "Macedonian parliament on Wednesday passed a law bolstering official use of the Albanian language in the Balkan country... The new law will increase the use of Albanian at a national level." etc. It is clear that until the legislation procedure is not finished, the use of Albanian language is not at a national level. When the final of the legislation procedure will be a fact, we can change the status of Albanian here. At the moment the procedure is in development, but has not finished yet. Jingiby (talk) 15:15, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

No matter what the news agencies analyse, the Albanian is not regarded as a second official language. Its not even mandatory subject in the schools. Its use is just extended to several levels.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 10:12, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
@MacedonianBoy: Could you please translate in English the 4 paragraphs of Article 1 of the law, so we can see if it's recognized as official? --StanProg (talk) 12:47, 20 March 2018 (UTC)


References

  1. ^ http://www.france24.com/en/20180314-macedonia-adopts-law-boost-albanian-language-status

Semi-protected edit request on 20 March 2018

Name of country is incorrect. There is no unanimous recognition by any large foreign body, of the name "Republic of Macedonia". The only recognized name is "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" or "FYROM". Tsintsunami (talk) 22:40, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: See the notice at the top of this page. RudolfRed (talk) 22:53, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 April 2018

173.177.3.205 (talk) 12:56, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:58, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2018

Change the Albanian language from a regional language to an official language of the state! Albinbeqiri (talk) 15:20, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —KuyaBriBriTalk 15:29, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Name

As stated in the article itself 'the provisional description the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (sometimes abbreviated as FYROM and FYR Macedonia), a term that is also used by international organizations such as the European Union, the Council of Europe, and NATO.' Wikipedia should not take sides. The country is NOT officially called Macedonia, even if the word is in the FYROM abbreviation.

  • It should also be stated clearly that there is no connection with the ancient and actual Macedonia (if it's not). Onoufrios d (talk) 19:29, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Wrong. See WP:MOSMAC. Wikipedia uses the English common name, and pays no attention to Greece's ridiculous copyright dispute over the name "Macedonia". Macedonia is called Macedonia in English far more often than it's called "FYROM". WP:MOSMAC is the definitive usage rule for Wikipedia based on WP:ARBMAC and WP:COMMONNAME. --Taivo (talk) 19:57, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

The Wikipedia "consensus" is different that one agreed by the 2 countries

Following the rules of WP:MOSMAC is in contrast of the Interim Accord of the 2 countries. Taking into account that this is a period of intensive talks, the WP:MOSMAC fails to be neutral, as it takes the side of the one party. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.205.231.42 (talk) 11:39, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the United Nations. Community consensus decided as the most reasonable outcome WP:MOSMAC. Its the Republic of Macedonia (Република Македонија/Republika Makedonija).Resnjari (talk) 01:12, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Please change the name to FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA

Your article is innaccurate and misleading. There is no recognition of Republic of Macedonia in the United Nations and there is a tremendous discussion (which is largely ommitted) on the ILLEGAL and UNETHICAL USURPATION of the name "Macedonia" by the Slavs of BULGARIAN ORIGIN that currently inhabit what is today this Republic. Their connection with Phillip of Macedon, Alexander the Great is historically INEXISTENT. Only after 1991 there is a totally unjustifiable claim from the inhabitants of this region which is not supported by any valid historic data since the language, usages, civilization of the ancient Macedonia where Greek. In addition there is no reference to the battle of Skra in the first World war, when a large portion of slavs with Bulgarian ties who previously pillaged and plundered the southern Macedonian villages, committing atrocities on the ethnic Greek populatio ultimately took sides fighting on the BULGARIAN side during WW-I. They were decisevly DEFEATED by Greek and allied military forces and were forced to abandon the region by retreating behind the mountain of Tzena never to return again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.52.104 (talk) 08:34, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Not going to happen. Read WP:MOSMAC. PepperBeast (talk) 09:15, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
Republic of Macedonia is sufficient because there is no other entity known as the Republic of Macedonia, is there? – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 18:02, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

ARCA pointer

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment#Clarification_request:_Macedonia_2 --NeilN talk to me 18:04, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I have applied full protection on this page for one day due to the high traffic of name change inconsistent with the naming guideline as a result of the ongoing news about the agreements reached between Macedonian and Greek governments. Just a note that until the name change have been approved by both parliaments (and endorsed by the European Council), WP:MOSMAC still applies. Alex Shih (talk) 19:40, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks @Alex Shih:. The official change of name will take months, and probably till then there will be tough times for this article. It probably should be a full protection longer than one day, though of course the full protection can be applied again after the current one expires. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:07, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Edit request

I suggest that a new section should be made detailing the agreements that have been reached between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia, sources may be found above. Regards, lovkal (talk) 19:42, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

That sounds sensible, Lovkal, but I think the current mention in the lede would be sufficient as there are not many details made available at this moment, although other editors may disagree. Alex Shih (talk) 19:50, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. NeilN talk to me 02:47, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

fourth century

Third paragraph: "annexed by the Kingdom of Macedonia in the fourth century". Surely, 'BC'? Heavenlyblue (talk) 02:45, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done --NeilN talk to me 02:50, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

North Macedonia

There is breaking news that Greece and the Republic of Macedonia have reached an agreement, where-in the name of the country will be changed to either North Macedonia or Northern Macedonia. [2] [3]

As stated in the edit notice, this will need full discussion, and possibly an ARBCOM motion, for any page renaming. power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:02, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

In any case, the name change hasn't happened yet, and will need to be approved by the Macedonian legislature and so on, so changing the Wikipedia page seems premature. Vilhelm.s (talk) 18:51, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Name is changed officialy now according to Dutch media. TheMuurtje (talk) 19:17, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Dutch media is then mistaken, Macedonia needs to hold a referendum in order to change the name of the country.[1] Therefore I suggest that the page should not be moved until it's been made official. lovkal (talk) 19:35, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Also worth noting that the referendum will only happen once both parliaments agree on the proposal, so I'd strongly advise against anyone starting an article on the referendum until that hurdle is passed. Number 57 19:51, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

The referendum will be held once the proposal is agreed in FYROM's parliament. Wikipedia, as a neutral organization, should have used the name under UN accepted name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.72.45.90 (talk) 06:14, 13 June 2018 (UTC) Sources

References

  1. ^ "Macedonian government agrees to change the country's name". The Independent. Retrieved 2018-06-12.
Also, as per the Swaziland article, use the name in common usage rather than the official one. I would recommend reading the arguments there. Dreigorich (talk) 20:05, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 13 June 2018 #2

the country is now apparently called The Republic of North Macedonia https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/macedonia-name-changed-to-end-27-year-name-row-20180613-p4zl6r.html?platform=hootsuite TheBeardOfJesus (talk) 05:32, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Not yet, this still has some way to go before its a forgone conclusion. Macedonia is to hold a referendum soon on the agreement and Greece also needs to ratify it in parliament before its done deal. Until then no hasty changes and the status quo of WP:MOSMAC within English Wikipedia remains in place.Resnjari (talk) 06:03, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. See the bit about "Editors may not make any modifications to the official name of this country until consensus has determined that the name has officially changed." Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:09, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

We should probably bold "Republic of North Macedonia" at the end of the lead paragraph, though. — kwami (talk) 08:00, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done This seems safe, given that North Macedonia and Republic of North Macedonia redirect here. --BDD (talk) 15:37, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 13 June 2018

Could you please change Republic of Macedonia to Republic of North Macedonia is it is now it's official name? JadenStar10 (talk) 02:26, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: Please read the note at the top of this page and various discussions below it. NeilN talk to me 02:47, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
These discussions are now outdated considering recent developments (none of them even mention the recent "North Macedonia"), and it's possible that consensus can change. FallingGravity 03:26, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
This still has some way to go before its a forgone conclusion. Macedonia is to hold a referendum soon on the agreement and Greece also needs to ratify it in parliament before its done deal. Until then no hasty changes and the status quo of WP:MOSMAC within English Wikipedia remains in place.Resnjari (talk) 06:05, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Until the constitution is amended, nothing concrete has changed. It's just a preliminary agreement. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 21:10, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 13 June 2018 #3

In the first paragraph, last sentence [new text in italics]: On 12 June 2018, the Macedonian and Greek governments reached a preliminary agreement to end their dispute, which would result in Macedonia being renamed the Republic of North Macedonia (Cyrillic: Република Северна Македонија), pending a constitutional amendment. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 21:20, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:54, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 14 June 2018

In the infobox on the right, the figures in the GDP (nominal) field match the given source's listed values for 2018 - but the infobox says "2016 estimate". As the numbers are already accurate, please update the text to say "2018 estimate". Thanks! – numbermaniac 05:49, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:56, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 June 2018

I noticed that the lead currently includes the text "On 12 June 2018, the Macedonian and Greek governments reached a preliminary agreement to end their dispute, which would result in Macedonia being renamed the Republic of North Macedonia (Република Северна Македонија)." This is TOOSOON.

This is slightly misleading, because this is only a preliminary agreement, and the most recent developments suggest that this name change will not materialize because the President of Macedonia said he will not be signing off on it. (Source: Washington Post)

Please remove this text from the lead of the article until this actually materializes. If it is preferred to keep the text, then please follow this statement with one mentioning that the President of Macedonia announced that he does not intend to accept the proposed change to "Northern Macedonia." Thank you. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 05:00, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

I advocate for now to move this sentence to the section called "Naming dispute". Jingiby (talk) 05:23, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
This is also a good solution. Too early for the lead, but not too early for the article overall. If it doesn't make it into the country article, Macedonia naming dispute can hold this information. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 12:40, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:47, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Macedonia 2: Motion

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

The Arbitration Committee clarifies that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia) may be modified by an RfC discussion. The discussion must remain open for at least one month after it is opened, and the consensus must be assessed by a panel of three uninvolved contributors. In assessing the consensus, the panel is instructed to disregard any opinion which does not provide a clear and reasonable rationale explained by reference to the principles of naming conventions and of disambiguation, or which is inconsistent with the principles of the neutral point of view policy or the reliable sources guideline.

For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 14:34, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Macedonia 2: Motion

North Macedonia or Northern Macedonia?

North Macedonia

Northern Macedonia

Since neither name is actually official at this point in time and depends on the translating preferences of the individual journalists who are translating either the Greek or Macedonian transcripts, it doesn't really matter. It's so new that there isn't an English common usage yet. --Taivo (talk) 10:12, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
What is so called "Greek transcript"? site:gr "Norh Macedonia" or site:gr "Norhern Macedonia"? What is so called "Macedonian transcript"? site:mk "Norh Macedonia" or site:mk "Norhern Macedonia"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:1028:838E:4D76:F43F:89:339A:8318 (talk) 10:30, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Well, the English text of the agreement as published the other day (which I assume will be identical to the one that was officially signed today), has "North Macedonia" [4]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:41, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
In fact there is an English term, because the contract was originally written in English and then translated to Greek and Macedonian. This is because when there are disputes only the English version of the contract is considered. The official name is "Republic of North Macedonia" and the short name is "North Macedonia. --StanProg (talk) 11:11, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Right version: Severna Macedonia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.62.18.87 (talk) 12:23, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

As there was a pagemove [5] of the article recently, thought i would cite this. Media reports like this one say [6] it may take some several months for both sides to go through their processes of a referendum (Mac) and ratification (Mac+Gre). So early 2019 if it all goes to plan. Proposed changes to the name of the article would best be discussed then when its all officially done and dusted then. Best.Resnjari (talk) 17:22, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Moving "North Macedonia" to the naming dispute section

Based on many comments from previous places in these discussions, I've moved the comment about the June 12 2018 (very) preliminary agreement between prime ministers to the naming dispute section, where it is, at this time, more appropriate than in the lead. It is far from a done deal at this time and faces significant opposition in Macedonia (not so much in Greece apparently). --Taivo (talk) 05:00, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Very much appreciated, thank you Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 07:36, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

It was just signed today tho? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.32.245.247 (talk) 15:55, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

It was signed by the foreign ministers. Then it has to go through Parliament. Then it has to be signed by the President. If he rejects it like he says he will, it will go back to Parliament. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 21:48, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
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