Talk:Naseem Hamed

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British / British-Yemeni[edit]

ActionHeroesAreReal argues that, based on [1], the "nationality" of the article subject "is both British and Yemeni" (Special:Diff/1213615662).

Mac Dreamstate disagrees, referring to MOS:IDENTITY and stating that "He's not known for being Yemeni" (Special:Diff/1213554283).

The disputed content can't be restored without a discussion here leading to a consensus for doing so (WP:BLPRESTORE). ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Naseem's notability (in the arab world) relies mostly on the fact that he is Yemeni.
On his official instagram account, He uses both the flag of Britain and the flag of Yemen.
Many sources refer to him as being a "British-Yemeni boxer": [2][3][4][5] and many others.
Yemen has issued many postage stamps with him on them, providing more proof that he is notable for being Yemeni. This is one of them.
Not including that he is British-Yemeni is a clear violation of WP:NPOV Abo Yemen✉ 10:30, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
100% agree with what you are saying, Abo Yemen. Many reliable sources also refer to him as British Yemeni, as you have shown. The idea that “He's not known for being Yemeni”, as Mac Dreamstate states, is a categorical lie. I’m in favour of having “British-Yemeni” mentioned in the lead. ActionHeroesAreReal (talk) 13:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the Arab world wants to "claim" him as Yemeni (as Nigeria often does for Anthony Joshua), despite him never being any other national than British, then WP:WEIGHT needs to be invoked for sources. One can bring up just as many reliable non-Arab sources stating he is British alone: "Few British boxers", "first British fighter", "British boxing legend", "British fighter's career".
"Not including that he is British-Yemeni is a clear violation of WP:NPOV" – baseless; no violation whatsoever when MOS:ETHNICITY is invoked.
Furthermore, [6] is a content aggregator; completely unreliable. [7] and [8] still do not supplant MOS:ETHNICITY, specifically Nationality examples. He has neither moved to Yemen nor was born there. We don't list Chris Eubank as British-Jamaican or Frank Bruno as British-Dominican for the exact same reason.
The easiest solution is to simply expand upon his Yemeni ancestry in the Early life section just like with all other personalities who are nationals of one country but have ancestry from elsewhere. This is the standard across thousands of articles. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 12:33, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Likewise we don't list Kal Yafai as British-Yemeni or Amir Khan as British-Pakistani, nor (to use a non-boxing example) Idris Elba as Sierra Leonean–British. This is basic stuff. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 13:06, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
how about we revise all of these articles too?
Abo Yemen✉ 14:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A wikipedia policy is a stronger argument than a manual of styles Abo Yemen✉ 14:14, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
plus, he himself states that he is a british yemeni.. Abo Yemen✉ 14:28, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"how about we revise all of these articles too?" – How about no. I guarantee you'll get absolutely nowhere.
"A wikipedia policy is a stronger argument than a manual of styles" – A manual of style is Wikipedia policy.
Also, per MOS:IDENTITY: "When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by recent reliable sources." If this means you're going to start digging up every obscure Arab-centric publication that labels him British-Yemeni, then you'll need to consider WP:WEIGHT as stated above. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 15:44, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the citations I've provided in my other response :([9], [10], [11] (In the last citation, he said himself "I’m in a lot of pain because of my nation Yemen, and will always stay Yemeni wherever I am" in minute 0:06)), and other citations provided by @ActionHeroesAreReal: [12] and @Abo Yemen: [13], [14], [5], [3], that prove that it should be said "British-Yemeni" rather than just "British". Where the condition of adding "British-Yemeni" by @JFHJr was him saying that he is Yemeni himself, which I provided. Based on that he has stated being Yemeni, and that there a discrepancy between the term is most used by reliable sources, "British-Yemeni" complies more with MOS:IDENTITY "When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by recent reliable sources. If it is unclear which is most used, use the term that the person or group uses.". Is there a consensus now on changing it to "British-Yemeni"? |MK| 📝 15:15, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chiming in from WP:BLPN: The Variety reverence is not a reliable source for BLPs and must be removed. Admin, please assist. On the other hand, the Instagram WP:BLPSPS regarding nationality/ethnicity can support the British-Yemeni claim. The link should be archived and used as the reference for nationality. It is not self-serving and affirms the subject's own consideration of his nationality/ethnicity. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 22:42, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, it looks like instagram isn't easily archived. Any better ref than Variety is still preferred. Even other social media actually by the subject. JFHJr (㊟) 23:02, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Does Hamed reside in Yemen? GoodDay (talk) 15:22, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No source already in the article appears to say so. Better question might be whether he ever did, since nearly all Yemenis with dual nationality have fled the war-, famine-, and disease-racked land. Maybe someone can look into his youth, when choosing to live in Yemen was more of a realistic option. JFHJr (㊟) 16:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@JFHJr i feel insulted, but you've got a point Abo Yemen✉ 17:09, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies. I don't judge normal Yemeni people at all for the situation in Yemen. Point is, the answer to the question of whether a Yemeni has lived in Yemen might take research. Research unrelated to notability (cf. WP:WEIGHT). JFHJr (㊟) 17:15, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GoodDay Nope Abo Yemen✉ 17:09, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Best we stick with "British". GoodDay (talk) 17:26, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Without any relevance to notability or even any biographical significance outside parentage, RS tend to indicate that "Yemeni" belongs out of the lede and confined to "early life." If the subject so much as publishes an interview in a reliable source saying "I'm a proud Yemeni" or the like, then that would add some relevance to push me to add it to the lede. But I don't see anything other than Instagram, which is problematic to cite (emoji and image descriptions invite OR) let alone archive. JFHJr (㊟) 17:31, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As the article emerges from lock in about two hours, is there now consensus to remove the Variety source and list him solely as British, based on the multitude of sources I've provided – [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21] – which do just that? User:ActionHeroesAreReal has shown very poor form as an editor (including elsewhere on WP) by refusing to engage in discussion and summarily reverting me the last time, resulting in his contentious content sticking for a week. As such, there may be competence issues at hand. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Go for it. JFHJr (㊟) 20:39, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Seven sources all labelling him as British—unless, as User:JFHJr points out, he explictly states in an interview that he is "British-Yemeni". Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
will a tweet of his saying that he is "British-Yemeni" be enough? Abo Yemen✉ 16:51, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Or even something as general as "I am many things and one of them is Yemeni (heart flag)" It doesn't have to hit any particular claim of citizenship. Just identity. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 02:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Abo Yemen: And if you're talking to the subject, I'd recommend Twitter/X since it's more easily archived than Insta or others. JFHJr (㊟) 03:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mac Dreamstate
  • [22] : A Yemeni flag is raised along with a British flag at minute (0:30) by Naseem’s crew, why would a Yemeni flag be raised unless he is showing off being Yemeni?
  • [23], [24], [25], [26] : All of these postal stamps published by the Government of the Republic of Yemen, state that Naseem is a Yemeni World Boxing Champion
  • [27] : in this interview in minute (0:29) he saluted The then-president of Yemen Ali Abdullah Saleh with him saying “Our president”, implying being a Yemeni. Also in the video, it shows Naseem meeting up with said president in Yemen in the minute (1:47). Another part of this video is an interview with his own father (in Malah, Dhamar, Yemen) in minute (7:16), he said that his son Naseem about the Republic of Yemen that he is “From them and to them”
  • [28] : And finally, In an interview with him by MBC in 2018 in Jeddah, in minute (0:06), Naseem Hamed said “I’m in a lot of pain because of my nation Yemen, and will always stay Yemeni wherever I am”
All if the above is more than sufficient proof of him being Yemeni, not only that, I believe being a Yemeni should be emphasized more than being British because of the sources stated. Hence, “Yemeni-British” would probably fit more to his personality as he’s always been proud on TV about Yemen way more than the UK, but “British-Yemeni” would sound fine if the former annoyed anyone. I think we can all agree that including both would comply more with WP:NPOV, as only including one would be a violation of that policy based on the above evidence. |MK| 📝 09:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@JFHJr, Due to the above, he has stated in an interview being Yemeni. |MK| 📝 11:36, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Postage stamps are WP:NOR since you're drawing conclusions/characterizations where such text stating nationality does not appear. It's implied (by a third-party government about a living person of ostensibly other nationality). YouTube is not a reliable source for BLPs. I was very eager to agree with you until I saw where the links pointed. Can you find one that's not YouTube? JFHJr (㊟) 02:47, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well youtube is not a reliable source, however it does show with audio and picture him confirming being Yemeni, which is what was wanted if i’m not wrong. |MK| 📝 06:34, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I disagree, the postage stamps does not call WP:NOR, it said “Yemeni”, and that’s why I have inserted those. If they didn’t I wouldn’t have bothered. |MK| 📝 06:40, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He says all that in video tho, i don't see how that could not be reliable? Abo Yemen✉ (btw today's my birthday) 10:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More re postage stamps. It's not even clear what the images imply: origin, diaspora, race, nationality, citizenship. The ahem postage stamps certainly do not lay any discernible biographical claims to this living person. But they make for excellent illustrations of how the world appreciated this subject's achievements. We just can't draw any extrinsic textual conclusions from them and state them as fact. We get his prestige in his parents' homeland, as well as his postage values. Hope that helps. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 03:24, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How does this look? "British Yemeni" JFHJr (㊟) 05:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good, but add the (-), “British-Yemeni” because that’s the correct way. |MK| 📝 06:30, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good enough Abo Yemen✉ (btw today's my birthday) 10:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The relevant part of Wikipedia's Manual of Style is MOS:NATIONALITY. During his boxing career Hamed was not widely known as Yemeni. The New Lines Magazine article explains that he was often mistaken as South Asian showing that his Yemeni heritage was not well known. The opening paragraph should stay as it is, "British".--Jahalive (talk) 17:59, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t think you’ve seen what I’ve inserted above, he has said on several occasions (based on what i’ve put) him directly identifying as a Yemeni, and as per MOS:IDENTITY: “When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by recent reliable sources. If it is unclear which is most used, use the term that the person or group uses.”, hence we should use British-Yemeni, or Yemeni-British. |MK| 📝 18:51, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just look at a fight of his, raising a Yemeni flag by him or his crew, which makes “not widely known as a Yemeni” clearly false. |MK| 📝 18:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:IDENTITY is about what vocabulary to use to describe identity, not when to use that term. Look to MOS:NATIONALITY for guidance on what belongs in the opening paragraph.
It seems like he's never lived or competed in Yemen. If you have evidence that he was widely known as Yemeni during his boxing career you could change my mind. A flag at a fight of his isn't enough, his heritage would need to have been reported by reliable sources.--Jahalive (talk) 17:57, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do have evidence, he has stated himself being a Yemeni on several occasions, look at my reply above as I've detailed everything out. |MK| 📝 18:01, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't see any reliable sources from the era he was boxing that described him as Yemeni, so they are not relevant to MOS:NATIONALITY.--Jahalive (talk) 18:22, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aljazeera refering to his as being "of Yemeni origins" Abo Yemen✉ 18:28, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Assuming we can trust Google Translate that says "Boxer Adam Hamid - the son of the famous British boxer Naseem Hamid". I support mentioning his Yemeni heritage in the article, just not in the opening paragraph..--Jahalive (talk) 18:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is the full quote: "Boxer Adam Hamid - the son of the famous British boxer Naseem Hamid of Yemeni origins - achieved a historic victory in his first official fight in the boxing ring." Abo Yemen✉ 19:18, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Being of Yemeni origins is different than being Yemeni. Aljazeera calls him British.-- Jahalive (talk) 19:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
both of his parents are Yemeni, so he definitely is Yemeni. Him having a british citizenship doesn't change the fact that he's Yemeni (gosh please stop arguing cus at this point I sound like a Yemeni nationalist) Abo Yemen✉ 19:32, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well you completely ignored what I inserted previously, with his own lips, saying that he is Yemeni. |MK| 📝 19:41, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I give more weight to how Al Jazeera described him.-- Jahalive (talk) 19:45, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
and ignore how he described himself?? Abo Yemen✉ 19:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weird logic ain’t it? |MK| 📝 21:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also in this interview with him(during his boxing career) in minute (0:29) he saluted The then-president of Yemen Ali Abdullah Saleh with him saying “Our president”, implying being a Yemeni. |MK| 📝 18:33, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The video is in arabic btw, which is another proof that he is Yemeni because i've never seen a william speak in perfect Yemeni Arabic Abo Yemen✉ 18:37, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can confirm, he is indeed speaking in perfect Yemeni Arabic. |MK| 📝 18:48, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At this point you're just making up excuses to not mention that he is Yemeni...
Videos of someone saying where they're from is definitely as reliable as them saying it in a tweet or even more reliable.
Also could you give me your reasoning behind why him raising the flag is not enough?? Abo Yemen✉ 18:15, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We don't need tweets, we need reliable sources. I can raise Yemen's flag, but it doesn't make me Yemeni. If there are reliable sources that commented on the flag at his fights then that could be in the article, but we need more than that to put it in the opening paragraph.--Jahalive (talk) 18:28, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mac Dreamstate and JFHJr wanted proof of him saying that he is yemeni in an interview or a tweet and MK gave them what they wanted. Also see the aljazeera source Abo Yemen✉ 18:33, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Compromise: we stick with "British professional boxer" in the opening sentence, but later in the lead it can be expanded upon (within reason; the majority of it still belongs in Early life) how his Yemeni ancestry formed/continues to form a significant part of his identity. How he identifies, symbology at his fights—all of that can go on a separate sentence, and I do not mean wording it as "British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage". Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:22, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The proposed compromise is not that bad, but what’s wrong with "British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage"? I feel that it is the most suitable compromise based on his British citizenship, and his Yemeni heritage that is completely factual without a doubt, then we (as you proposed) expand on the heritage part in the lede. |MK| 📝 21:01, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also “British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage” perfectly aligned with Naseem’s identity and can be easily cited, and it perfectly aligns with WP:NPOV |MK| 📝 21:10, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"then we (as you proposed) expand on the heritage part in the lede" – why not expand upon it separately rather than lumping it within his current (and only) citizenship? Worldwide he's known primarily for being a boxer, so after birthdate and citizenship his boxing achievements come first. Then his heritage can have a separate paragraph. That adheres to WP:WEIGHT, in that everything is balanced. The idea isn't to de-emphasise his Yemeni heritage, but to include it in a logical order relative to his notability—that notability being his boxing career first and foremost. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 15:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can not confirm that his only citizenship is British. Being a Yemeni is as notable as being British as per himself and that he has shown it off during his boxing carrier. |MK| 📝 16:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because as per Yemeni nationality law, he can at any point request the citizenship, based on that his father is a holder of said citizenship, as his father has settled there and was born there and then moved to the UK. |MK| 📝 16:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hence it’s either “British-Yemeni” or “British professional boxer of Yemeni Heritage”, we have provided what you asked earlier, it’s either one or the other. |MK| 📝 21:37, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, I prefer “British-Yemeni”. ActionHeroesAreReal (talk) 22:23, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support including "British-Yemeni" or "British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage" in the lead Abo Yemen✉ 01:42, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is now a leading consensus, that it's either we add "British-Yemeni" or "British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage", I think that "British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage" is more neutral and it makes the lede comply with MOS:ETHNICITY and gives us the ability to cite "British" and "Yemeni" separately, hence should I apply that with keeping the citations on British and adding the citations of the articles mentioning his Yemeni heritage and or saying "British-Yemeni" [29], [30],[31]? |MK| 📝 18:52, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Slow it down, there is no consensus yet. Three users advocate the inclusion of "British-Yemeni" or other variations, and three are either not on board or are on the fence. Remember, there are seven reliable sources above which label him solely as British. I suggest WP:DRN for our next step. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That’s what i’m saying, “British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage” allows us to cite both separately, and my citations and other citations inserted by other users confirm his Yemeni heritage’s notability. I agree with your suggestion about WP:DRN. |MK| 📝 19:38, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Coming right up. Please give me a bit of time to collate the material we've covered and notify all the participants in this discussion for a DRN entry. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:04, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alright. |MK| 📝 21:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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