Talk:Eritrea/Archive 3

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Languages, cuisine, etc.

A newly-registered account has made a number of undiscussed, disruptive edits [1]. Except for one accurate update of the CIA factbook population figure, these include but are not limited to a link break of Tigray-Tigrinya people; replacement of the Saho women pic with one of Raishada (a small migrant community originally from the Hejaz); falsifying the GDP PPP figure; citing self-published websites and a wiki for languages; removing material on the commonality of Eritrean, Ethiopian and Somalian cuisines; removing a link-thru to the religion main page; removing the religion bar box; and removing mention of the last remaining native adherent of Judaism [2]. Middayexpress (talk) 16:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Languages, cuisine, religion, economy, pictures. And possible vandalism from user

Hi i am user Hiyob346,

I will go trough all of the recent contributions I have made to the Eritrea page, and I will also try to motivate and explain each one of them. I would also like to add that some of the sources that I have added are newer version of the old ones.

--Religion--

First source: By Pew Research Center (2009): http://www.pewforum.org/files/2009/10/Muslimpopulation.pdf Pew Research Center is one of the leading organizations in the world that collect data about religious groups and their populations around the world. The source by Pew Research Center has mapped all of the worlds Islam population country by country, this is one of the biggest studies that has been made about trying in trying to map the Islamic population of the world . The study clearly states that the Muslim population of Eritrea is 36,5% (2009). I am sure that some people are critical to this and questions this, but can you please provide newer and more reliable sources than this one?

Second source: By US Department of State (2011):http://www.webcitation.org/5ywEZKW1R This sources states that there is 50% Christians in Eritrea, 48% Muslims and other religious groups is at 2%. There was an old sources on the page by US Department of state from 2009 which I removed since this source is exactly the same source from US Department of State which i added, only a newer version. I also removed the table showing Christian and Muslim population since this included the old source from the 2007 I mentioned before by the US department of state.

--Languages--

First source: By the Australian Government (2006): http://www.immi.gov.au/living-in-australia/delivering-assistance/government-programs/settlement-planning/_pdf/community-profile-eritrea.pdf This study aims to give information about the Eritrean Community in and outside Eritrea. The paper clearly states that "Nine main languages are spoken in Eritrea with Tigrinya and Tigre being spoken by approximately 80 per cent of the population".

Second source: By Ethnomed organization (2009): http://ethnomed.org/culture/eritrean/eritrean-cultural-profile Ethnomed is an organization that contains and provides information about cultural beliefs, medical issues and related topics. Ethnomeds country profile about Eritrea states that the majority language in Eritrea is Tigrinya. On their webpage is states: "The traditional language for more than half the population of Eritrea, and now the official language of Eritrea, is Tigrinya". Secondly, Ethnomed has taken their information from http://www.ethnologue.com/country/ER . Ethnolouge is an organization that provides a comprehensive reference work cataloging all of the world’s known living languages ,Since 1951. On their Eritrea page it states that more than 2.500.000 are Tigrinya speakers in Eritrea and that this language is increasing, it also states that this is the (Nation) language. This source also proves that Tigrinya is the biggest language and also is verifies what the other sources said, that Tigrinya is spoken by the majority of the population of Eritrea. It mentions that over 1.000.000 is Tigre speakers. Together with Tigrinya it makes up 3.500.000 million of the population.

Third source: By Everyculure: http://www.everyculture.com/Cr-Ga/Eritrea.html This source did exist in the language section before on the Eritrea page. I just added more information from this page into the language section. This source also states that Tigrinya is the biggest language which again, verifies the other sources I provided. I also added in the language section that English is being taught from the second grade in Eritrea, which this source also claims and is correct since I have been working as a school teacher in Eritrea for over than 8 years. The source states:

"English is taught as a second language from second grade. It appears, however, that Tigrinya is taking over as the dominant language, since the majority of the population are Tigrinya-speakers, the biggest towns are located in the highlands, and most people in government and the state bureaucracy are from the Tigrinya ethnic group".

It also states that the biggest towns are located in the highlands, which is true, just take a look at any map of Eritrea. In the highlands the biggest Ethnic group is the Tigrinya which is true. Take a look at the Ethno- demographic map that is posted in the section "Demographics of Eritrea"--> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Eritrea. This source confirms also confirms this --> http://www.eritrea.be/old/eritrea-people.htm . I am sure that you can find every type of Ethnic group in Eritrea everywhere but generally each group have their own native spot or areas if you like to call it. For example "Tingrinyas" in the highlands, the "Rashidas in the northeast, "Afars" in the southeast etc.

Fourth sourcee: By ESL: http://esl.cmswiki.wikispaces.net/file/view/Languages_of_Eritrea.pdf This is a page that is made for teachers. The material in this case that is posted about Eritrea is mostly taken from the CIA factbook about Eritrea. For some reason the CIA factbook have taken away the section about different languages in Eritrea. The piece by ESL was written before the information was removed from CIA factbook. I can understand why this particular source can be questioned and removed, but still this source verifies that Tigrinya and Tigre makes up the majority of the languages being spoken in Eritrea (80%), with Tigrinya being the biggest.

--Economy--

First source: By African Development Bank Group (2011): http://www.afdb.org/en/countries/east-africa/eritrea/eritrea-economic-outlook/ This is an organization that impartially tries to spur sustainable economic development and social progress in its regional member countries. In the section for "Eritrea's economic outlook" they write about the development of Eritrea economy which has to do with the growing mining sector in Eritrea. This was the information i added, plus information about BNP ect. These information is much more up to date then the old information in the economic section, which I have not removed. I removed the old picture of the "Commercial Bank in Massawa" , which is not representative to the Eritrean economy at all since this is not the main commercial bank of Eritrea. There is a "head" commercial bank of Eritrea which is located in Asmara. I added a picture of the Bisha mine in Eritrea since this mine is has had the biggest effect on Eritrea's economy the last two years. If this is not pleasing to some of you, I can suggest to add a picture of the commercial bank of Asmara also. But I don't see why you would want to take away the picture of the Bisha Mine?

Second source: By MIT (Massachusetts Institution of Technology) (2009): http://atlas.media.mit.edu This source (picture) of the tree map export already existed before. I removed it and replaced it with a newer version since the old picture was from 2007. The new picture is from 2009 and includes the Gold export of Eritrea.

--Culture (Cuisine)--

First Source: By Pamela Goyan Kittler, Kathryn Sucher,Food and culture Eritrea" (Book) (2011): http://books.google.com/books?id=R06H7WabJuMC&pg=PA202&lpg=PA202&dq=Pamela+Goyan+Kittler,+Kathryn+Sucher,+%27%27Food+and+culture+eritrea&source=bl&ots=EggZiH9FRY&sig=gsyjRHu9FRNulFbndRRYOwxld8w&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=hkOCUtxgyazgBNjvgbgK&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Pamela%20Goyan%20Kittler%2C%20Kathryn%20Sucher%2C%20&f=false

This source already existed in the culture section. The only thing that was change was the claim that "Somalian cuisine is very similar to Eritrean". Which the source does not claim!. The source claims that Eritrean and Somalian Cuisines are similar to Ethiopians cuisine. Therefore the person who used the source in the first place should try to read it again.

Second source: By chow.com (2011): http://www.chow.com/food-news/78493/how-ethiopian-eritrean-and-somali-cuisines-are-different/ I also used this source since it point outs and clarifies the differences between Eritrean, Somalian and Ethiopian cuisine. This source claims that Eritrean cuisine and Somalian are not the similar! Here is a statement from the actual source:

"Eritrean food is extremely similar to Ethiopian but you will find a little bit more fish involved, and much more Italian influence, as it was occupied for a period of time"

"Somalia is a completely different story, says dagoose. "It is nearly entirely coastline, which means it saw much more influences from outside sources. You'll find it has flavors of the Middle East that have migrated south, as well as some of the Kenyan flavors that have migrated north—including their heavily Indian immigrant influenced cuisines."

I also added information about the locally brewed beer in Eritrea known as "Sowa" (Known as Tella in Ethiopia) and a honey wine called "Mies" (Known as gesho in Ethiopia). I will add more sources of this.

--Other Comments--

And finally I removed the picture of the "Saho women" since it was placed under the language section, and secondly they are only 4 % of the Eritrean population and not representative to the whole population of Eritrea. I know that the Rasishas is also 2%, but that picture has been on the Eritrea page for many years and in the right section. My suggestion is to change these pirctures to a collage where every ethnic group in Eritrea is represented or remove the picture of the "Rashida" children and "Saho women". Since people seem to have different opinions.

The user Middayexpress has removed all of my contributions, without taking it to discussions, "is this vandalism?". I think that users who contribute to this page should be objective and not partial of any side, Muslim or Christians User Middayexpress always seem to try to include Somalia in every topic and issue that involves Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya eaven if it is not relevant. Lets stay to facts and nothing but facts and reliable sources. Users should give constructive criticisms and try to discuss matters instead of just removing contributions which takes time to write.

This is Wikipedia and everybody should be welcome to contribute and people should not try to serve their own interest.

Looking forward to constructive discussions.

Hiyob346 (talk) 23:43, 14 November 2013 (UTC)Hiyob346

Those are some of the same self-published sources and wikis (wikispaces?) I was alluding above. You don't do yourself any favors by presenting them here out of context. Fact is, you removed the Saho women pic outright; and not once, but twice. The section it was placed in had nothing to do with it because the Saho and their language are mentioned in it. Collages aren't commonly used for peoples on country pages, but something tells me you are aware of this too. You also removed all mention of the commonalities between Eritrean, Ethiopian and Somalian cuisine and with no legitimate justification other than a personal attack on a veteran editor. FYI, the very link you present above begins "the cuisines of Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Somalia have major similarities" [3]. Difficult to overlook that when it's the very first sentence. It's also impossible for you to know anything about my edits unless you're not a newbie at all, which I suspect is the situation here. Your edits and behavior are redolent of that one bellicose editor on Eritrea's religion and demographic pages. Middayexpress (talk) 23:55, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Every source is put into context. I'm trying to explain and motivate my contributions and sources. I gave you 9 sources that was not wikis. Be specific, If you are questioning my sources, Why don't you write what’s wrong with them instead and give some constructive criticism? I have never tried to contribute without a source that backs up the claim. The person that engages in "edit wars" when it comes to the religion demographics should be banned.

Hiyob346 (talk) 00:38, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Some specifics were already pointed out in the first post above, and in the second one below it. The removal or replacement of the Saho pic, bar box, and cuisine similarities are unwarranted. The eritrea.be, everyculture, and wikispace links are also self-published sources, so what they assert is unreliable. Further, both religion figures can be cited to show the percentage range for the main faiths. The AfdB material and newer tree map are ok. However, the Massawa branch pic of the Commercial Bank of Eritrea is preferable to the Bisha mine pic, which is copyrighted and about to be deleted. Lastly, Ethnologue states that there are 6,915,000 Tigrinya speakers in all countries, and 4,320,000 of those speakers are in Ethiopia [4]. So that link above claiming that 80% of people in Eritrea are Tigrinya speakers is clearly referring to lingua franca usage, not first language usage. Middayexpress (talk) 01:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

You don't mention the rest of the 9 sources? Again, be specific about all sources you say is wrong. Since you are removing everyone of them, including the contributions. The removal of the rashida picture from your behalf is wrong and are unwarranted. As i suggested it is better to remove both of them than keeping one of them. Since neither of them is representative to all of the ethnic groups. The cuisine similarities can be written and explained under the Eritrean cuisine page or somewhere else. Once again you throw in Somali information that is not correct in the texts. The source ('Food and culture Eritrea" (Book))you mention does not state that Eritrean and Somalian cuisines are similar, this is your own source! It states that both Eritrean and Somalian are similar to Ethiopian, but not to eachother. There is a big difference between that. Also the other sources about the cuisines does state that their is similarities between the cuisines but only mentions similarities between Eritrean and Ethiopian. The source also mentions "that the Somali food is an totally different thing, " , and the source continuous by explain why they are different. The bar about religious affiliations should be removed since it got an old source, but also since I added a newer version of that same source. Many sources say different thing, so it does not make it right to use your old source and make a bar of it and to visualize statistics that is out of date. Therefore, I have provided the source by Pew Research Center, which you do not want to talk about. The Bisha picture has already been removed, but a donated version will be added. Ethnologue states that there are 2.500.000 million Tigrinya speakers in Eritrea, and 1.000.0000 Tigray speakers in Eritrea. Do the math, 3.500.0000 makes up more than half of Eritrea population, regardless any source you will find about the Eritrean population. I wrote that they together make up half of the population which the source I posted by the Government of Australia also confirms. Tigrinya ethnic group make up 55 % of the total population and they speak Tigrinya is that strange to you?. Please read it thoroughly again!

(Hiyob346 (talk) 02:41, 15 November 2013 (UTC))

Each of your "9 sources" was addressed above. I replaced the Rashaida pic (a recent migrant group originally from the Hejaz in Saudi Arabia) with one of the Saho (a native Eritrean ethnicity with twice the Rashaida's population size). Funny how you noticed this when I made this change before you even registered this account. The source for the bar box can be easily updated, so claiming that it's old is not a valid pretext for removing it altogether. You replaced a reliable source highlighting the similarities between Eritrean, Somalian and Ethiopian cuisine with some "chow blog" that states in its very first line that the cuisines of Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Somalia are similar. Most editors wouldn't even dignify such an edit with a response since blogs are unreliable sources. Now that I think of it, your arguments here are virtually identical to the aggressive ip on the injera page as well. Lastly, Ethnologue indeed states that there are around 2,500,000 speakers of Tigrinya in Eritrea and 1,050,000 Tigre speakers [5]. 3,500,000 speakers is a little over 50% of Eritrea's population of 6,233,682. That's nowhere near the 80% you suggest, even after the few Arabic, Dahlik and Ge'ez speakers are factored into the total. Middayexpress (talk) 03:31, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

New changes for Eritrea page, and suggestions

I have removed all of the sources you did not like and replaced them with new better ones, but also kept the good ones.

Religion:

Change 1: Remove the box that displays the Religious affiliations, since it uses source from 2007. I will add the exact same source from 2011 (By us Department of state), where it states that Christianity is the 50% of the population. There is also a source with a worldwide study that verifies that Muslim is not majority, only 36, %. By Pew Research Center. My suggestion is that we change the numbers to the latest source by US department of state. Or keep both of the sources as in my last version of the edit. The rest of the information in the religion section should not be changed and is Ok.

Sources:

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2009/10/Muslimpopulation.pdf

http://www.webcitation.org/5ywEZKW1R

Economy:

Change 1: Add that the a big reason for the big growth of Eritrean Economy is owing to the commencement of full operations in the gold and silver Bisha mine and to the production of cement from the cement factory in Massawa. Keep the rest in this section.

Source:

http://www.afdb.org/en/countries/east-africa/eritrea/eritrea-economic-outlook/

Language:

Change 1: Add that Tigrinya is the biggest language, approx half of the population. But we don’t need to add that it is the majority language. There we could compromise. Ethnologue writes that when the population was 5.254.000 in 2006, 2.540.000 was Tigrinya speakers. That’s about 50%.

Sources:

http://ethnomed.org/culture/eritrean/eritrean-cultural-profile

http://www.ethnologue.com/country/ER

Change 2: Add that Tigrinya Language and Tigre together makes up the majority of the languages being spoken in Eritrea. We don’t need to take away anything from this section just add more. According to Ethnologoues data 1.050.000 was Tigre speakers 2006. Tigrinya speakers 2.540.000. Together 3.5090.000 when the population was 5.254.000, so together they are majority!

Source:

http://www.immi.gov.au/living-in-australia/delivering-assistance/government-programs/settlement-planning/_pdf/community-profile-eritrea.pdf

http://www.ethnologue.com/country/ER

Culture: About the Cuisine

Change 1: Add to the cusine section (On the Eritrea page) that Suwa is traditionally a common sorghum beer common in Eritrea. Another alcoholic drink that is common is Mies, made out of honey

Sources:

http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/en/eritrea.pdf

http://books.google.se/books?id=f0R7iHoaykoC&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=suwa+eritrean+drink&source=bl&ots=ylQIkf9PU_&sig=jBIiJ0Gyzvoh1Cm6iqGHop0DhFs&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=loCGUo6eCunR4QTWiYGoCg&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=suwa%20eritrean%20drink&f=false

http://books.google.se/books?id=U0o_6dGSTr8C&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=suwa+eritrean+drink&source=bl&ots=zIUEmK-kz0&sig=vk6NG25rRRw5tUHXxe5DEidX2yk&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=3oSGUu3VO4eO5ATjmYCgBA&ved=0CGYQ6AEwBzgU#v=onepage&q=suwa%20eritrean%20drink&f=false

http://ethnomed.org/culture/eritrean/eritrean-cultural-profile

http://www.worldtravelguide.net/eritrea/food-and-drink

Change 2: Add to the cuisine section that the main traditional food in Eritrea is Injera made with teff wheat or sorghum, eaten with different stews.

Source:

http://books.google.se/books?id=Ky9oYQlhDv4C&pg=PA283&dq=injera+eritrea&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=LaqGUpL6H4GI4gTsqoDgAw&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=injera%20eritrea&f=false

http://books.google.se/books?id=Qi-KQchGks8C&pg=PA68&dq=injera+eritrea&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=yayGUorTDZPY4QSy9YHQAQ&ved=0CFoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=injera%20eritrea&f=false

http://books.google.se/books?id=pg7IfHCSVRgC&pg=PA131&dq=injera+eritrea&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=FaqGUoGmNeHl4gSl0oCADQ&ved=0CHsQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=injera%20eritrea&f=false

Change 3: Provide another reliable source that Eritrean and Somalian Cuisine are similar. The source “Food and culture” does not claim that Eritrean cuisine are similar. It only claims that Eritrean and Somalia cuisine are similar to Ethiopian, not to each other. If you find a good source that claims this, I will accept it. Since you say it is similar this wouldn’t be hard to find. Try to find a source that explains that they are smilar, but also how they are similar specifically.

Pictures changes

1. Restore the picture of Eritrea’s Ethno Demography picture since this displays all of the Ethnic groups by area. Since this picture can also be found in the section Demographics of Eritrea.

2. Restore, the picture of the St. Joseph Cathedral. Joseph Cathedral is one of the most visited tourist attraction in Eritrea and Asmara. This picture does not break Copyright rules.

3. Remove the picture of Saho women and Rashida children since these groups are not representative for the whole population of Eritrea. Together they only make up 6 %. As the government say, each ethnic group are treated equally. So the argument that Rashid’s is an immigrated group and Saho’s native does not count, both are recognized. Neither of these pictures is breaking any copyright rules. But since people have different opinions about what picture to use it is better to remove both.

4. Replace the picture of the commercial bank in (Massawa) with a picture of head commercial bank of Asmara instead. Since this is the head office and can represent the economy in a much better way.

5. Remove the old three map export picture since this one is from 2007. Replace it with version from 2009 that I added.

(Hiyob346 (talk) 22:52, 16 November 2013 (UTC))

The cuisine book implies that Eritrean, Somalian and Ethiopian culinary traditions are similar, which is why it discusses Somali injera in the very next sentence. In any event, I've added another link specifically asserting that the cuisines are similar. As for the demographics, the Raishida are recent migrants to Eritrea from Saudi Arabia (19th century). They are indeed citizens, but are not representative of many Eritreans, whereas the Cushitic Saho certainly are. I've also replaced the Enda Mariam Orthodox Church pic with one of the 15th century Sheikh Hanafi Mosque in Massawa since there was no mosque pic opposite St. Joseph's Cathedral. Middayexpress (talk) 17:04, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

The cuisine book , does not state that they are similar to each other in plain text and it certainly does not states that they"extremely smilar". It only makes the statement that Eritrean are similar to Ethiopian. I can understand why many countries in the horn have similar influences in their cuisine. Your new source confirms exactly that, which I have written on the cuisine section. But, since we know that the Eritrean cuisine is almost identical to the Ethiopian based on their history, it is most relevant to keep this only this information on the cuisine section. If you want to write about the similarities and differences about the many horn cuisine you can write it on the cuisines pages. And as for the "Suwa" beer and the "Mies", they are most certainly traditional alcoholic beverages so stop removing this information. I have given you 4 sources regarding this. I can give you 4 more. If you would ever been to Eritrea you would also know this. As for the mosque picture it is very good that you uploaded it since the page has a picture of a mosque and church which is very representative for Eritrea. Lastly, the saho pic should be removed. no rashida should be added since they are not representative as mentioned.

(Hiyob346 (talk) 20:33, 17 November 2013 (UTC)).

That Suwa and Mies are alcoholic bevarages was not removed. It's clearly indicated that Mies is "another popular local alcoholic beverage". By the way, Eritrean Mulsims for the most part do not drink alcoholic bevarages, and they make up almost 50% of the local population. So these drinks should not be presented as nationwide staples. At any rate, what was removed was all reference to the similarities between Eritrean cuisine and Somali cuisine, but not between Eritrean cuisine and Ethiopian cuisine. So clearly, it's the commonalities between Eritrean cuisine and Somali cuisine that are the real problem. That's unfortunate because Tekle indicates that both culinary traditions are similar [6]. I also didn't upload the mosque pic; I just added it here. No valid reasons for removing the Saho pic have been provided. There's already a wedding pic of what looks to be Tigrinya folks. It therefore only makes sense to have one for Eritrea's second largest demographic group, Cushitic speakers. Middayexpress (talk) 21:07, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

No the mentioning of alcohol was not removed this time. But you did remove 3 of these sources. Do you speak for all Muslims when you say that they do not drink suwa, mies, alcohols? I have 4 sources that claims that it is most certainly a traditional alcoholic beverages of Eritrea. What sources do you have? From what I know, many Muslims tend to drink alcohol, every Muslim person is different. So to say that mies and suwa are not being drunken by 50 % of the population and Muslims are a lie. Eritrean Muslims also tend to be very liberal, but that you did not know maybe, like in Turkey etc. Sure there is influences in the cuisines in the horn region, but not any source you have provided states that Eritrean and Somalian cuisines are "extremely similar" as you write. Coffe cermonies and drinking is already mentioned in the early sections of the cuisine section. That "people tend to drink coffe in Eritrea, and tea in Somalia" are not cuisine similarities. Many countries all over the world drinks coffe and tea. Does that make the Eritrean cuisine similar to the US cuisine for example. No, it does not. The book "food and culture" writes that Somalians drink tea to their meals, and Eritreans drink suwa, do you really think Eritreans drinks suwa beer to all of their meals? , that would be insane. So that source is questioned. Look at the 4 suwa sources I have given you instead, I can provide you with many more. The saho pic and the Tigrinya pic can be removed, since every ethnic group is not represented.

(Hiyob346 (talk) 22:08, 17 November 2013 (UTC)).

None of the links claim that Eritrean Muslims drink those alcoholic beverages nor obviously would they. It's original research to insinuate that they do, and defies logic too since Qur'anic instruction forbids alcohol consumption. Here's a link on Eritrea that expressly states this: "At Christian weddings, men, often the groom himself, serve suwa to the guests[...] This is a fermented alcoholic drink made from honey and grain[...] Muslims do not drink alcohol, but they do serve a festive meal including lamb, goat, or beef." In other words, suwa is a drink mainly consumed by Eritrea's Christians, not its Muslims. That many Eritreans drink suwa whereas Somalis prefer sweetened tea is likewise in this instance one of the main differences between the two cuisines, not similarities [7]. Middayexpress (talk) 22:51, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Manufacturing history

Reading what is written about Eritrea and Aksum, I have sensed that there is a scheme to makeup history favoring Eritrea. 1)There has never been a Hamasen Republic. 2) the Kingdom of Aksum was mostly in the present day Ethiopia, Tigray Region, some Parts of Eritrea are included, but not as much as the one depicted in the map presented here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elyaad (talk • contribs) 10:58, 26 December 2013 (UTC)