Talk:Dolgellau

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Major revisions[edit]

As you can see, I've made a lot of changes and added a lot of material. I even took most of the pictures - anyone with prettier ones is welcome to replace mine.

Much of the historical information comes from the site linked to at the bottom of the article, which may be rather out of date - annoyingly, I don't have a copy of the History of Merioneth to hand, but I'll pop into my library at some point and get something out of that. If anyone has any better sources in the meantime, please contribute. garik 15:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hengwrt manuscript[edit]

I've always assumed this was from Hengwrt at Dolgellau, but I have yet to see this confirmed. Does anyone know for sure? garik 12:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The name Dolgellau[edit]

The following paragraph was added to the article; it appears contentious and is unreferenced. If it is worthy of inclusion it needs proper referencing.

"A debate took place in the 1950s regarding the correct Welsh spelling and Dolgelli had its advocates before Dolgellau was settled on. Robert Williems Vaughan had insisted on the name Dolgellau for petulant reasons, if his family home (Nanney) was known as Nannau in Welsh then Dolgelly had to follow suite and be known as Dolgellau. The reason that Dolgellau was chosen as the *official" Welsh spelling rather than the more appropriate Dolgelli, was for sectarian reasons. The main proponent of Dolgelli was the Roman Catholic Judge Thomas Peter Ellis, and the councillors were more inclined to take the view of a petulant Protestant landlord than that of a Catholic historian and etymologist."

RGCorris (talk) 13:22, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Copies[edit]

This copying seems to have taken place in several edits on 30 June 2010, so i cannot provide a single diff. Cheers, LindsayHello 13:35, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Pronunciation[edit]

What is the purppose of leading with an 'English' pronunciation in this article? I've heard a ridiculous amount of pronunciations for Dolgellau, of which the listed English pronunciation in the opening sentence is merely one. You can find quite a lot of variation in other English dictionaries, so I'm not sure what makes Collins and Dicitonary.com so authoritative.

What can be said is that these pronunciations are attempts to approximate the Welsh pronunciation, with different results given in particular for rendering the voiceless alveolar lateral fricative, i.e. /ll/, or in IPA [ɬ]. Surely it would be more sensible to lead with the Welsh and then give whichever English approximations are deemed representative (though there will still be great variation). I doubt anybody is turning to this article to discover how some English speakers attempt to render this Welsh place-name.

In light of the above, there is no single 'English' pronunciation, or a regular or predictable English one. Giving one as has been done so far seems almost like an attempt to create an official English pronunciation, which is usually heavily discouraged here. Not sure what makes Welsh and/or Wales different. DeioOrCwm (talk) 13:45, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with your change to the lead sentence. MOS:DUALPRON clearly says [w]hen a foreign name has a set English pronunciation (or pronunciations), include both the English and foreign-language pronunciations; the English transcription must always be first, which pretty much means the way it was. As a couple of examples, i note that Aberystwyth and Rhayader both follow this direction. I agree that there are more than one approximation in English, but the -ɛθlaɪ one is, i believe, much the common one. I'd invite you to revert your edit till we arrive at a consensus for change. Happy days, ~ LindsayHello 14:36, 2 June 2024 (UTC) Quick ping to DankJae who has also edit the pronunciation today and probably has an opinion. Happy days, ~ LindsayHello 14:39, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@LindsayH, agree on the technicality that MOS:DUALPRON calls for English first, so the previous order restored, even if I'd prefer the Welsh put first personally. Although happy that the English is actually kept here considering many disagreements at WP:WALES calling for the removal of English pronunciations, so an open issue. DankJae 14:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi DankJae, i have to confess, i don't watch WP:WALES, so i'm not aware of these disagreements (doesn't surprise me, though, considering various historic and current actions and emotions around Welsh and England); i notice, however, that some towns do have the English removed which i think is a foolish error, so i'm all for retaining it here. I'm not really one for bureacracy for its own sake ~ or technicalities ~ but i think that DUALPRON has some sense to it: We are the English WP, and reading the Welsh pronunciation isn't especially helpful (i say the word frequently, but i struggle to make sense of the Welsh IPA as given) ~ thus i really do think we ought to revert to the previous order. Happy days, ~ LindsayHello 15:15, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@LindsayH, just mentioned it as a lot of English IPAs have been removed recently or long discussions over whether to include/reinstate them. But as were here DUALPRON does technically argue for the previous order, so guess it should (unless WP:WALES agrees otherwise in the future). DankJae 15:22, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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