Talk:Daniela Kerck

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• ... that when Daniela Kerck directed Puccini's Turandot in her scenic design for the 2024 Internationale Maifestspiele, she played the opera unfinished as it was when the composer died in 1924? Source: [1]
  • Reviewed: to come

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk).

Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2104 past nominations.

Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:18, 6 May 2024 (UTC).

• The article is new enough and long enough. It is properly sourced. Earwig detects some close paraphrasing with this site, so that will need to be resolved before the nomination can be approved. QPQ pending. The hook itself is interesting, but it's a little on the long side and I wonder if it could be simplified to simply:

ALT0a ... that when Daniela Kerck directed Giacomo Puccini's Turandot in 2024, she played the opera unfinished as it was when Puccini died in 1924?

I included Puccini's full name in the hook as he may not be a composer that is known by name among most readers unlike say Mozart or Beethoven. Apart from the close paraphrasing, my main concern with the article right now is the wording of the hook supporting sentences.

She directed Puccini's Turandot in her sets for the 2024 Internationale Maifestspiele, conducted by Yoel Gamzou. She decided to use none of the three completions of Puccini's opera that was unfinished when he died in 1924. She identified the Prince with the composer. When he died in the end, the beginning of his Requiem was performed.

It's a bit confusing to get how the hook is connected to this excerpt, though I think the issue here is more about wording, so a copyedit to make the article or at least the passage flow better might solve the issue. Pinging 4meter4 for help in copyediting the article so that the passage would more clearly support the hook. As an aside, the reference supporting the hook needs to be after "when he died in 1924" rather than after the mention of the Requiem.

I would also like to ask 4meter4 how significant Kerck's directing of this particular performance is or how significant the Internationale Maifestspiele is in the world of opera, but this would not affect the nomination but rather is just a request for additional context. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Didn't you say you review my nominations only when they have lingered for weeks? Kindly read the article about the festival, - it was founded after the model of the Bayreuth Festival in the 19th century. Anna Netrebko came to sing Turandot during the festival. [2][3] - Puccini is probably better known than Mozart due to La bohéme. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:16, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@ Narutolovehinata5 The Internationale Maifestspiele is a respected and long standing opera festival that draws a sizable international crowd (typically around 20,000 people+). It is one of the more important opera festivals in Germany, although it isn't as famous as the Bayreuth Festival which is on another level and is probably the most famous opera festival in the world. The Internationale Maifestspiele would be known by anyone who follows opera seriously in Europe, and would probably be immediately recognizable to most people living in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and parts of France (the German speaking parts along the French/German border). I don't think the average person outside of those countries would find it immediately recognizable, but that shouldn't preclude using it in the hook. Turandot is a very famous opera, and even people only nominally familiar with opera would probably either know the name or recognize some of its music. Most people would know Nessun dorma for example which has played in the soundtracks of many films and tv shows, and has been performed on numerous singing competition programs internationally.4meter4 (talk) 17:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

• The hook fact is not accurate in either version of the hook. The opera was not played "unfinished" but ends with the death of Liu by design. There's a long discussion with the director at https://www.staatstheater-wiesbaden.de/download/42624/hsw_ph_turandot_rz_digital_240404.pdf about the crafting of a new ending by Kerck. If one reads through the program they make an argument about why the opera should end with Liu's death, and how Kerck utilized notes and sketches by Puccini to rework a new ending that ends in that place. In other words, we shouldn't suggest that the opera just leaves off where Puccini stopped, because that isn't what this production did. Nor should we call it "unfinished" because it was given a re-worked ending designed by Kerck based on notes left by Puccini and incorporating portions of Puccini's 1905 Requiem. I also note that it is called a "new ending" in the Frankfurter Rundschau review that is cited.

I also have an issue with the original hook because it seems to say she was 'directing through scenic design' as opposed to staging the production. She staged it and she designed the sets and that isn't at all clear in the first hook. Lastly, the article currently fails the WP:BLPSOURCES guideline because the biographical content is sourced to an opera company website that employs Kerck. @Gerda Arendt this is a repeating problem. Stop using opera company and orchestra website artist bios to write articles. These are not independent sources, and our policies on BLPs require "high quality" (ie independent) sources. That's not negotiable.

Finally, the last two sentences of the article are very confusing to anybody not familiar with Turandot, and is obviously in error to those who are. The character of the prince (ie Calaf) needs to be explained. Further the text asserts the prince dies and is being conflated with Puccini's death, but Calaf doesn't die in the opera, Liu does. That whole bit seems confusing and to be in error. It doesn't really grasp what the sources are saying accurately. There needs to be plot context, and discussion of the autobiographical nature of Puccini's interaction with the characters from events in his life in order to make it understood what Kerck was actually doing with her original ending which places Liu and her death (not the prince who remains very much alive) at the climax of the opera. @ Narutolovehinata5 If it is alright with you I am going to take over this review because of the factual errors in an area I have some knowledge in. 4meter4 (talk) 16:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

4meter4, thank you for clarifying festival and opera. - The hook: it took you several sentences to describe what she did (direct, design the stage, create a new ending with different music than usually ...), - could you kindly offer a wording in 200 chars, or help with it? I think we will have to mention that Puccini left the opera unfinished when he died in 1924 (the year needed because of the centenary), which leaves little room to say more, - I doubt that it's commonly known. How about saying that the performance leaves out the happy ending that he wasn't able to compose? Trying:

ALT2: ... that Daniela Kerck, scenic designer and stage director of Puccini's Turandot for the 2024 Internationale Maifestspiele, omitted the happy ending that the composer had not set to music when he died in 1924?

ALT2a: ... that Daniela Kerck, scenic designer and stage director of Turandot at the 2024 Internationale Maifestspiele, omitted the happy ending that Puccini had not composed when he died in 1924?

Other ideas welcome. - Which "biographical information" do you think is sourced to an opera company? - This is not yet a reply to the last paragraph, - we had an edit conflict, twice. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:05, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

After edit conflict: what I saw on stage was that after Liu's death, the Prince/Puccini moves to the grand piano, Turandot follows, kisses him, and he dies (called "Todeskuss" - kiss of death - in one of the reviews), - the new ending. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt I think the tags I placed are self explanatory as to which sources are promotional non-independent sources. I'll take a look at the plot change leading to Calaf's death by looking through more sources. In reading the one interview with Kerck, she specifically emphasized Liu's death as her focus and pointedly named the Prince as complicit in her death through his silence. Regardless, it would seem killing off the prince at the end rather than having him end happily with Turandot would be a hooky fact. I think the emphasis of the hook should de-emphasize Puccini and focus more on Kerck and her original work. The hook language should not cram too many facts in, but should be a focused sentence on a single fact.4meter4 (talk) 21:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I made some changes, adding sources, and dropping the details at the end that you found confusing. I added a newspaper ref for the nomination for the Opera Award. Only, it's subscription only, so I left the University ref for the same fact - that people can actually read - also. (I also don't see that what a university reports about an alumna is "promotional.") I need sleep, and tomorrow is a feast day. Patience please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:57, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@ Gerda, I was able to find more detail in this review which confirms the kiss of death https://magazin.klassik.com/konzerte/reviews.cfm?TASK=review&PID=8178. I would suggest incorporating more detail into Kerck's article highlighting specific changes to the story between her ending and the other traditional endings. A good hook could read something like this: Alt3 ... that Daniela Kerck's new ending to Puccini's Turandot reenvisioned Turandot giving the prince the kiss of death rather than proclaiming her love?4meter4 (talk) 22:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@4meter4: I'm okay with you taking over the review, but given that Puccini isn't a household name and not everyone may know who he is, I'd suggest that any hook mentioning him give his full name. I'll leave it to another reviewer as to whether or not ALT3 is okay but personally I'm not a fan of it since it assumes knowledge of the opera, which not all readers may have. My preference would be more towards some variation of ALT2's hook fact as it seems less specialist. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5 I would consider Puccini a household name and a commonly known figure. He is a seminal composer in the western canon and one of the most performed and recorded composers of all time, on the same level as Mozart, Wagner, Verdi, Bach, etc. Indeed, he gets performed more frequently than Wagner, placing third on the list of most performed composers, surpassing both Beethoven and Bach. I disagree that a full name is needed, or that Puccini could be considered in any way an obscure figure. His operas are ubiquitously performed globally and have been for over a century. According to opera base, in the year 2024 alone there are 681 different professional productions of his operas being staged around the world, and that includes companies in Asia, North and South America, Australia, Africa, and Europe. That doesn't include the many orchestras and concerts that are programing his music as well in 2024. There are very few composers so widely performed across the world, and over such a long period of time. I would think most of our readers would know who Puccini is, and if they don't, they would be the exception. His arias even get sung and recorded by pop and rock singers on occasion which is rare for an opera composer. For example "Nessun dorma" from Turandot has been performed by Adam Lambert, Queen, Jennifer Hudson, Jeff Beck, Josh Groban, Manowar, and Michael Bolton among many other non-opera singers.4meter4 (talk) 03:35, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

4meter4, thank you for taking the time! I'm off for the day but reading this when just checking the watch list made the day even better. Recommended listening [4], enjoy! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:33, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

• Gerda Arendt unless I am missing something in the above lengthy discussion, you have not provided a QPQ. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:22, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

  You of all people might have known that after returning from a good weekend trip, I first had to deal with the RD article of the day, and then with sourcing M. H.. I am not done (or am I, please check?), and before supplying a qpq, I'll have to source Kerck to your and 4meter4's liking, or not. What an opera company writes about its member is thought to be "promotional". Interesting. What I see is a list of roles. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:36, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Gerda Arendt. All work products/publications by a performing arts organization are intended as a tool of promotion as well as a tool for information. Opera companies/theatres are businesses and they have an invested interest in promoting their company/theatre and its performers in order to sell tickets. There is a commercial aspect to the performing arts, and the materials that an opera company/theatre produces for public consumption are directly connected to its commercial interests. This is why we should avoid using sources produced by theatres/opera companies as much as possible. Artist bios are written by talent management and PR companies. Most professional singers have a paid talent agent who specializes in marketing opera singers, and those agents often write the bios hosted on theatre/opera company websites. Or the opera company/theatre itself will have an in house PR/marketing staff member responsible for writing those materials. There is therefore, a direct COI with these kinds of sources because they are written as a marketing tool for commercial gain. When possible, its best not to use PR materials of this type for ethical reasons.4meter4 (talk) 15:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what you normally read, but I see that Oper Frankfurt and Hessisches Staatstheater write their own bios, and their own high-class program books. - German opera houses in general are public institutions, financed mostly by tax money. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Gerda, it's not a completely publicly funded institution. They sell tickets and market their organization. End of story. The fact that they are writing their own content makes it WP:SELFPUBLISHED in addition to having a financial COI. We shouldn't be using materials like this other than in an external link for ethical reasons.4meter4 (talk) 17:05, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I reviewed now Template:Did you know nominations/Richmond Theatre (Richmond, Virginia). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:30, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

• @4meter4 and Gerda Arendt: What is the current status of this nomination? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:09, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

  The type of sources not accepted by 4meter4 is discussed in the deletion discussion of Magdalena Hinterdobler. I believe we should not run the two parallel but wait for that to close. I also have Pentecost coming up, going to sing, and with little time to provide additional sources. One thing is sure: I'll mostly turn to Bach's cantatas for the rest of the year. No more biographies of living people for a while. Kerck's story, however, is worth telling. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:06, 17 May 2024 (UTC)