Talk:British Isles/Archive 26

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Improving Sources

Is there no end to this? I'm happy with the current proposal, but I'm not happy with some of the (abundant)references. When we've finally implemented the changes suggested here I'm going to seriously review the refs. Some of them are just appalling and are not in any way adequate citations. MidnightBlue (Talk) 19:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, the Kilfeather one is jaw-droppingly poor. Bill Reid | ^Talk 19:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't mind 'British Isles' being used, just as long as there is a section that sticks to history, terming it offensive to most of the Irish.--Theosony (talk) 23:16, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Nobody is trying to remove the fact that the term is offensive to some, this is going to be made clear in the second paragraph and its mentioned in detail further in the article as well as having an entire article on the naming dispute. The proposed change will not make this article biased, at the moment its bias against the totally legitimate and accurate word. Why are u just cuasing trouble? BritishWatcher (talk) 23:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Waggers - on a "point of order"; could you please remove the bolding from footnote 12. Thanks. MidnightBlue (Talk) 13:01, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Good spot.  Done waggers (talk) 13:06, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Formal request for "Semi-Protection" of this page, allowing Registered Users only to edit

Hello Adminstrators out there,

I formally request for "Semi-Protection" of this page, allowing Registered Users only to edit. Thank you for your kind consideration of this matter.

Sincerely, ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 20:47, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

You're wasting your buttons. The administrators won't semi-protect, merely to keep unregistered users away. Creating an account & signing in, is not mandatory. GoodDay (talk) 20:50, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Take it to WP:RPP. waggers (talk) 21:10, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Many object...still

I see after years of trying that a fresh batch of nationalistic British wikipedians have attempted to remove the word 'many' from this article. This attempt to downplay the consistent and well referenced Irish objections to this controversial term will not succeed. This article will be chaos for as long as you people try to impose your jingoistic British identity and its claims upon Irish people. Censorship will not work, either. 86.42.117.220 (talk) 23:07, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry a consensus was reached for the current wording of the article. It still makes clear that the term is controversial and links to the naming dispure article in the second paragraph. There is no censorship here, if there was the fact there is a naming dispute wouldnt be mentioned in the introduction. Perhaps if you would of joined in the debate instead of coming on tonight and starting a little rant your point of view would of been taken more into account.

This article will be chaos if editors like yourself jump in and making changes based on your own point of view and go against consensus like you just did. Sorry save your ranting for another website thanks. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:12, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Please restore to what it was, before IP.86.42.117.220 changed it without seeking consensus. GoodDay (talk) 23:36, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind folks, I've restored the previous content. IP, please bring your proposal to this talk-page & don't edit-war. GoodDay (talk) 23:41, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Then again, there was a consensus here a couple of months ago for the version with "many," so different times, different votes, different half-dozen people, different consensus. We'll see how it plays out... Nuclare (talk) 04:16, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Yep consensus can change, and it often does. As to why we are even replying to such a rude post... I'm really not sure. --Cameron* 10:00, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

"Many" should not have been removed without a better phrase being inserted. The problem here is that it was just taken away, and why? PurpleA (talk) 14:04, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Because it has no meaning. Many could mean half a dozen, or half a million. And in fact, either could be true in this context, because no poll has ever been taken in Ireland. ðarkuncoll 15:16, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

And per WP:WEASEL. --Cameron* 15:24, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

"there are objections" has no meaning either. In fact, it has far less meaning than 'many.' "Many" may be broad, but it is not weasel. Nuclare (talk) 02:57, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

"Consensus" does not mean one group getting things their way while another group still object. It's a quite warped view of the word "consensus". Majority perhaps, but not consensus. zoney ♣ talk 16:44, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

These complaints about removing the word "Many" were not raised before, from what i saw everyone agreed except we had one person who went on a rant about the evil British. I agree with the comment made above, "many" can mean anything and there is no direct evidence of how many in Ireland do truely object to the term. The current wording is valid, it explains there are objections without trying to claim or guess how many do have a problem with it. Such things belong on the controversy article anyway, this is about the British isles not people being offended by it. The fact the whole second paragraph is dedicated to talking the "British Isles" down i think its hardly promoting a biased point of view. There was consensus, and that consensus was for the current wording. Thanks BritishWatcher (talk) 10:42, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I raised the 'many' issue--although I didn't fight it, but it would be nice if people would stop saying things about this issue that aren't true. A 'many' wording was valid as well. It wasn't guessing; it was using sources which said 'many' or equivalents thereof. It was the heart of former disputes about the lede, so one should hardly be surprised when it re-emerges. And the second paragraph is not about "talking the 'British Isles' down"--such choice of words exposes your own bias--it is about decribing an issue that goes to the very existence of the term. Nuclare (talk) 13:50, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The second paragraph describes the fact that there are objections to its use which is valid and does deserve a mention in the introduction. The sentence (even though its justified) does talk the term down because it says people object and a different term is regularly used. My point of view on this matter is clear however none of my actions here have been attempting to make this article biased. It was infact biased before the recent change when it was trying to suggest the British isles is a term thats dying out, which is simply not the case. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:20, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

"Dying out" was not used in the phrasing. It suggested that Britain & Ireland was becoming preferred, which may very well be true. It might not be true in the circles that you frequent or encounter, but one does get the impression that BI is becoming less used overall. Now, it's a difficult thing to prove (for one thing you cannot count that which is being avoided) and there was only that one source that made the claim directly, so I had no problem with the change of that last sentence. But that sentence wasn't even what we were talking about here; "many" was being discussed here. Nuclare (talk) 18:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

It suggested that Britain and Ireland was becoming the prefered term, which implies the British Isles is dying out, its the same thing. I dont have a big problem with the word "many" being mentioned if sources clearly provide evidence that its the case but "many" isnt a great word because it can mean anything and can lead to more disputes. "Many" may of been used before but for some reason the biased introduction that was on this article had been allowed as well. If the majority want many re added to the intro then its fine with me, My main problem was never the word "many" but the fact the controversy issue was dealt with in the first paragraph and in a biased way.BritishWatcher (talk) 18:53, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

No, "B&I becoming a preferred term" and "BI dying out" is NOT the same thing. Nuclare (talk) 04:03, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

(re-indent)Any takers for deleting the words: "..where there are objections to the use of the phrase..", so that the sentence reads: "The term "British Isles" is controversial in relation to Ireland, and the Irish government discourages its use"...? Gets rid of incessant discussion over what is meant by "many". Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:10, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Deleting that part would be find with me. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:12, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

No, sorry, don't approve. Removing things doesn't get rid of the desire to discuss. I think "many" was supportable with sources, but removing the whole phrase is bad too. Nuclare (talk) 12:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The purpose of the introduction is to give a succinct and balanced overview of the whole article. Points which are not agreed, about the scale and nature of the objections to the term, will of course continue to be discussed, but in my view those issues are more appropriate to the body of the article itself, rather than being essential to the lead. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:01, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I understand that, but there is nothing unsuccinct or unbalanced about not agreeing to the deletion you've suggested. Nuclare (talk) 04:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

True, but including the words "..where there are objections" provides an open door for those who wish to insert words like "many" and "some", or change "objections" to "offense", etc., often without providing the necessary justification. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:45, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree with that -- the 'open door' idea. The sources that say "many" are what provide the open door for its inclusion. "...is controversial in relation to the Ireland..." just doesn't seem like enough of a statement; *that* sounds like an open door. Nuclare (talk) 11:41, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

The whole issue of it being controversial is covered in the second paragraph of this articles introduction and its got an entire article on the naming dispute. The fact some in Ireland object to the term is given prime position and its made very clear. The current wording is more than reasonable. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

We also need to add that this objection is not shared by all Irish people, and that many don't mind it at all, or don't care. ðarkuncoll 12:44, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

We certainly should not add that, as "..there are objections.." is incontrovertible, and sufficient for the introduction. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:17, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe it should be moved to the "Alternate names..." section. We already have British Isles naming dispute and Terminology of the British Isles as separate articles. It's being given undue prominence as it is. --Cameron* 13:32, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

What should be moved? If you mean the entire second para, then I am fundamentally opposed, as it is necessary to a balanced introductory section. I wouldn't object to merging the "dispute" and "terminology" articles though. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed with both points made by Ghmyrtle, a mention of it is reasonable and balanced in the second paragraph and i think a merger of those two articles would be a good idea. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:13, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Everyone knows don't they, that in another couple of months consensus will probably change again? How many use the phrase British Isles? How many object to its use, preferring Britain and Ireland? Unless there is a poll taken throughout the islands (that's not going to happen) we will never know. In saying that, while there are good sources stating that many do indeed object to it we can't just ignore it. How many other sources can we reject due to the fact a majority of editors discussing it at this time (there may be different editors with different opinions the next time) decide it does not belong here? If we start rejecting sources because some editors do not like the term being used, wiki could be in trouble. Could someone please point out where a consensus was reached for the exclusion of the word many? It will be interesting to see just how much of a consensus there was. Jack forbes (talk) 22:25, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Purple box above, 9 February. The point is that "many" is unquantified and unquantifiable. WP can only work based on compromise (not necessarily consensus) - in this case, the compromise being the removal of the word "many" to ensure that a strong reference to the existence of the dispute and the views of the Irish government was maintained. Personally, I favoured the word "many" being left in - but my views, by themselves, don't and rightly shouldn't count for very much. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)I have read the discussion. It all seems fine and dandy but, here's my problem. Almost everyone has agreed to a compromise which included throwing out a perfectly good source. If I found an excellent source for an article and it was thrown out due to other editors compromising, I wouldn't be too pleased. In fact, I might be so displeased I would be tempted to add the wording associated with the source. I've even had a look at reference 12 at the bottom of the page where it still say's "many Irish object to the term British Isles". Won't someone reading that wonder why it's not included in the article?Jack forbes (talk) 23:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

The discussion was, so far as I'm concerned, based on WP:LEAD. The Introduction should and does summarise the article text, including the section on "Alternative names and descriptions". The phrase "many objections", with references, does not appear in the text of that section .... perhaps it should. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:30, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you. Why have a source and not use it? Jack forbes (talk) 00:35, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Clear case for use of longer form

"The British Isles are a group of islands off the northwest coast of continental Europe that include Great Britain and Ireland, and numerous smaller islands. There are two sovereign states located on the islands: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and Ireland."

So run the first two sentences. Notice that the word "Ireland" is used twice on its own (i.e., not counting where it's used as part of the phrase "Northern Ireland"), but with two totally different meanings. Surely the second instance of the term is a very good place to use the official description of the state, to avoid ambiguity, namely "Republic of Ireland". ðarkuncoll 18:04, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Im ok with the current wording but if nobody objects to the suggested change then ill support it. I agree including Republic of Ireland makes things more clearer but i understand it bothers some using the term. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:20, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

What's wrong with Ireland?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:21, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

(double edit conflict)That's a fair point, but the sentence makes it clear that the first part relates to islands, and the second part relates to sovereign states. It's really not *that* confusing that the state has the same name as the island and sometimes we pander a little too much under the banner of "Oh, but people will get confused". The same argument is used to object to the term "British Isles" - but just because some people don't like it doesn't mean we necessarily have to change it. You could also easily change it to read "that include the islands of Great Britain and Ireland" or something similar so that the islands bit is re-emphasised. Sorry - not taking a pop at you or anyone in particular, just getting this off my chest... --HighKing (talk) 18:22, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

My original suggestion was to refer to the "island of Great Britain, island of Ireland ...." etc., which in my view would be clearer (and allow the word "Ireland" on its own to refer solely to the state), but others disagreed. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:32, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Why make an atrociously inelegant sentence, with the word "island" repeated half a dozen times, when the obvious solution is the just say "Republic of Ireland" in the second sentence? What's wrong with it? It is, after all, an officially sanctioned description of the state. ðarkuncoll 10:48, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Because as you well know RoI is a political term not a geographical term and it is at best a description of the state not the name of the state (although a minority Unionist group seek its continued use). --Snowded TALK 11:00, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

We are talking about it being used in a political term as its talking about the sovereign states located on the British Isles. Using the description Republic of Ireland instead of Ireland would make things more clearer, but as some do object it should be kept the way it is. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:16, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the article should steer clear of the description Republic of Ireland. The name Ireland is correct, and it does not offend anybody.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:51, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

There are many whom it might potentially offend. By using that name the state is laying claim to the whole of Ireland, which it most certainly does not represent. ðarkuncoll 12:54, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Ireland is the historically-correct, English name for the country. If you ask an Irish person where he or she comes from they will either say Ireland or Northern Ireland, never the Republic of Ireland. Just as a French person never says he or she is from the Republique Français, but France. Some places such as the Czech Republic are referred to with the Republic as part of their name, but Ireland is never called as such by the Irish people themselves.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:06, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Ireland is certainly the historically correct English name for the country, but not for the artifical, gerrymandered state that occupies two thirds of it. ðarkuncoll 13:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

• 85% of it in fact, which is quite substantial, and thus carry more "weight". PurpleA (talk) 14:53, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Is that area or population? ðarkuncoll 15:01, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

• Keeping it geographic, of course. Half the population in the north eastern part would identify with the Irish Nation, so it's prolly 85% either way. PurpleA (talk) 15:05, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by "Irish Nation"? ðarkuncoll 15:08, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Same as the Welsh Nation, or the English Nation. Here's a useful link, nation. PurpleA (talk) 15:15, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

There are at least two nations in Ireland. ðarkuncoll 15:22, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

What are they? And 85% does carry "weight", do you not think? PurpleA (talk) 16:34, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Those that caused the partition of Ireland in the first place. And 85% of something does not give the state the right to lay claim to the other 15%. ðarkuncoll 17:02, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

You appear to be beating a 19th century drum, things have moved on a bit since. Nobody is claiming the 15%, that's their prerogative. If people want to call themselves British, then that's OK and perfectly valid. Wikipedia should "tell it as it is", that is the "acid test" for inclusion. PurpleA (talk) 17:36, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

When the UN, the EU and the British government agrees with you Tharky you might have a case. For the moment you are POV pushing. --Snowded TALK 13:21, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Tharkun does have a point, let's not start the finger-pointing. Look at it this way: It's rather similar to the US/Canada situation, surely. The south (US/ROI) outnumber the north (Canada/Northern Ireland). The term America geographically refers to USA and Canada, and the term Ireland geographically refers to both ROI an NI. The south both sympathise with republicanism, whereas the north wishes to retain cultural ties to Britain and usually sympathises with monarchism (yes there are exceptions on both sides...). Both Canada and the US, and (ROI an NI) are of the same biological ethinicity. However as out article ethnicity states, ethnicity can also refer to cultural, linguistic etc etc traits, which would (could?) make Canada & US different nations and ROI and NI different nations. So, really, I wouldn't say Tharky is POV-pushing. Just some of my thoughts... Best, --Cameron* 17:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I like Cameron's theory. GoodDay (talk) 18:05, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I can't follow what Cameron's point actually is. This isn't about concepts of ethnicity or nations. Ireland is the name and the internationally accepted name of the state. The sentence specially says that it is listing "sovereign states," so that is obviously what Ireland means there. Nuclare (talk) 18:55, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

No. The word Ireland is ambiguous. The Island of Ireland is different than the Republic of Ireland. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland still addresses criminal extradition warrants to the Republic of Ireland (and not just Ireland).

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 01:39, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Why are you adding stuff that's untrue? PurpleA (talk) 02:04, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Hello PurpleA.

I wrote this ...

" The word Ireland is ambiguous. The Island of Ireland is different than the Republic of Ireland. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland still addresses criminal extradition warrants to the Republic of Ireland (and not just Ireland)."

Please indicate which parts you consider "un-true"?

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 02:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

• The part about extradition warrants. It's pointless starting a debate over this. Apparently, court documents have to be precise, and ROI fails that. Any extradition warrant that is not accurate is dismissed as unsafe, and a waste of courts' time. That's the rule. PurpleA (talk) 02:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Ahem ... the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has an ongoing dispute with the Government of Ireland over the usage of the Republic of Ireland versus Ireland. The UK considers the former to be the proper long-form name (i.e., the Republic of Ireland).

Ireland has a double-meaning, either the Island of Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. The Irish want to have it both ways, however the UK says NO (I agree with the UK position, ie., the Republic of Ireland is the proper long-fom name).

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 02:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

You see, if you are living under the jurisdiction of UK law, then the official name *is* "Republic of Ireland". But that only applies to the UK. Everywhere else (and really, it means *everywhere* else), the official name is Ireland. So if the British government issues a statement, they're perfectly entitled to use their own terms for placenames (maybe bad taste, but hey, internal consumption is OK I guess). But if they wish to identify the Irish state internationally, then they must use the official name of the state, which is "Ireland". So your point about extradition warrants is incorrect, but I understand why there might be some confusion. --HighKing (talk) 13:44, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

There is no ongoing dispute! PurpleA (talk) 03:00, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe the dispute you are talking about was resolved about 10 years ago and the UK does now refer to the state as Ireland. And even if they do not, the UK doesn't get to decide the name of the Irish state; you see, that's what withdrawing from the UK and being a sovereign state is all about. Nuclare (talk) 03:51, 16 February 2009 (UTC) (Oh, P.S., *you* don't get to decide the name of the Irish state either.) Nuclare (talk) 03:54, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

In the English Language the word Ireland can have two meanings, the Island of Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. That is the source of the ambiguity.

In the Irish Celtic Language the word Éire was used from 1937 to 1949. The UK Government used the term Éire to indicate the portion of the Island of Ireland that was not apart of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (i.e., other than the Province of Northern Ireland).

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 04:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Ryanair use the term 'Republic of Ireland'. Saying 'RoI' is a purely English term is really a valid argument. --Cameron* 19:17, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Ryanair use Ireland. Just look at the country select drop down at the top of their website. Anyway they also use Great Britain for the United Kingdom so quoting an airline's website as some sort of proof is rather pointless.78.16.144.141 (talk) 23:14, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Well they must use both then...anyway I wasn't trying to get into the same old argument again. I was merely trying to dispell the myth that the term Republic of Ireland is only used by us English. ;) --Cameron* 12:20, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Crown Dependencies is are non runners

If the term is geographical, as some editors say it is, then Crown Dependencies is a non runner in the lead paragraph. Think we should get rid of that too. PurpleA (talk) 00:54, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Interesting point, but then again the lede is also describing the geo-policital make-up of the geographical area.... Perhaps it can be made clearer - make sure that the lede clearly describes the geographical area in terms of islands, etc, and then make the point of describing the geo-political make-up?? Can someone come up with a simple (elegant) way of making this point? My own clumsy suggestion is to prefix the geopolitical desciption with "Politically, the British Isles is divided into..." (yuk). I'm sure there's a better way... --HighKing (talk) 02:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I return to this ...

Archipelago

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/archipelago

How about this ...

"... The British Isles is an archipelago consisting chiefly of the Island of Great Britain and Island of Ireland and its adjacent islands. They are located north of the Continent (separated by the English Channel), and to the west of Scandinavia (separated by the North Sea) ..."

How is that folkes?

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 18:53, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

A nit pick, shouldn't it be "their adjacent islands."? Some "belong" to Ireland, some to the UK. Also not sure about the Continent - Americans aren't going to get that. --Blowdart | ^talk 23:04, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Hello Blowdart.

OK then ...

"... The British Isles is an archipelago consisting chiefly of the Island of Great Britain and Island of Ireland and their adjacent islands. They are located north of the Continent (separated by the English Channel), and to the west of Scandinavia (separated by the North Sea) ..."

Fine with me eh.

Take care, ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 01:12, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Blowdart, what do you mean by Americans aren't going to GET that? Are you implying that the average Americn at Wikipedia does not know that the continent is a reference to mainland Europe? Or are you using it in the obtain sense? I really don't think anti-Americanism should also be introduced to this page, as it stands now it's already heading for WWIII.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:34, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Yup that's pretty much why I'm saying. It's a phrase in common usuge in the UK and Ireland with no evidence of its usage outside that, in the US or anywhere else. That isn't anti-Americanism, but an attempt to stop colloquialisms which the audience may not understand. Good grief! "Mainland Europe" would be more "instantly" understandable. --Blowdart | ^talk 06:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you there, Blowdart, mainland Europe is more encyclopedic.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:57, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Blowdart and Jeanne are right that "the Continent" is unencyclopaedic - but there is no need to go along with Armchair's unhelpful and unnecessary suggestion at all in my view, as the current text is quite clear. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:51, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Use of the term "the Continent" is the very least of the problems with this article. Leave it. Sarah777 (talk) 23:31, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Singular or plural

IMO, the opening sentence is now ungrammatical. The previous opening phrase The British Isles is a group of islands ... has been changed to The British Isles are a group of islands ... and the word includes changed to include; that would only be correct if the words a group of were omitted and I don't think anyone is contemplating that. The sentence is constructed around the phrase a group of islands (singular) and not part of the phrase islands (plural) therefore is a group of islands.... that includes .... is correct. Bill Reid | ^Talk 11:36, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The object of the sentence is British Isles, which is plural. ðarkuncoll 11:39, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

So you would say The British Isles are an archipelago? The term British Isles is used in the sense of a singular mainly geographic entity and not as a scattering of islands-Bill Reid | ^Talk 11:50, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

"The British Isles are islands...." ?? Given that the Channel Islands, Shetland etc. are included, are they a "group" anyway? Just a thought. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:02, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The term British Isles takes a plural form, so "the British Isles are an archipelago, are a group", etc. are all correct grammatically. Just like, "the Canary Islands are an archipelago," etc. ðarkuncoll 13:29, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The noun-phrase The British Isles could either be singular or plural depending on the context in which it is used. If used in a purely loose sense (i.e. not as a single entity but just the isles around Britain) then yes, The British Isles are ... is correct but even then it would be The British isles without the capital 'I'. But this article seeks to give information about a group of islands as a defined entity. This is not unusual e.g. the United States, the Netherlands and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics are all referred to in the singular. Bill Reid | ^Talk 19:14, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I'll wait until tomorrow then reinstate the previous version. --Bill Reid | (talk) 17:50, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The difference is that the Netherlands, USA and USSR are the names of states. British Isles, on the other hand, is a geographical term and is analogous to the Canaries, the West Indies, the Maldives, and any other archipelago that takes a plural form. ðarkuncoll 12:41, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Is this a rule of grammar that says that only states that have plural proper noun names can have singular verbs and that geographic terms cannot? --Bill Reid | (talk) 19:38, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

There's no hard-and-fast rule, it's down to context (see WP:PLURALS for details). But certainly most other island group articles that I've looked at on WP with plural names treat the subjects a plurals:

• The Canary Islands are ...
• The Isles of Scilly form ...
• The Falkland Islands are ...
• The Shag Rocks are ...

In fact, I haven't found any counter-examples, other than non geographic entities (Baked beans is a dish...). I don't see any reason for the British Isles to be treated any differently from the island groups above - let's follow Wikipedia conventions. waggers (talk) 11:26, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes I would agree with you if there was a convention but there isn't; e.g. Juan Fernández Islands, Visayas, Samoan Islands, Islands of Four Mountains, Wollaston Islands, Azores, Barlavento Islands, Sotavento Islands, Antilles, Greater Antilles, British Virgin Islands, United States Virgin Islands, Kerguelen Islands, Mascarene Islands, Calamian Islands, Visayas, The Snares, Campbell Islands, Biscoe Islands, etc. Unfortunately neither Wikipedia:PLURALS [1] nor English plurals deal with the plural form of proper nouns and that is perhaps the problem. So in the absence of a convention on the naming of archipelagoes, I'm looking at precedent. E.g. The United States is a big country. The New York Times is a newspaper. The House of Lords is a reforming chamber. The British Isles is a group of Islands. This is grammatically correct because the plural proper noun is regarded as a single unit. If this article isn't about the BI being a single unit then fine, 'are' is correct, but then what's the point of having the article; we've already got the a myriad of articles about Great Britain, Ireland, the United Kingdom, England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, island groups, etc. Bill Reid | (talk) 17:27, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

How did you find all of those? Most impressive! To be honest I don't think there's much point in arguing over a 2/3 letter word; I can understand the arguments for either form and have no strong preference. I do think we need some cross-project consistency, but that's not something to discuss here. waggers (talk) 15:04, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you and had already decided to leave things at the status quo. The WikiProject:Grammar is moribund so no help there. If I come across something, I'll come back and discuss here. Bill Reid | (talk) 16:17, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Location

wikipedia users who type in the location should type in the latitude and longtitude Raspberry56 (talk) 13:49, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Er- the latitude and longitude are already there in the {{coord}} template. I'm not sure what else you might be referring to? waggers (talk) 16:00, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Isle of Britain used in 1560

In Antonia Fraser's biography of Mary, Queen of Scots on page 191, there is a quote from English ambassador to France, Sir Nicholas Throckmorton in 1560, "Methinketh it were to be wished of all wise men and her Majestie's good subjects, that one of these two Queens of the isle of Britain were transformed into the shape of a man to make so happy a marriage as thereby there might be an unitie of the whole and their appendances". This was written in 1560. Throckmorton is referring to Elizabeth I and Mary, Queen of Scots. One immediately notes that only one isle is mentioned, the island of Ireland is not.-- Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:18, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

• The "challenge" for these articles is to get "the balance of pov" 'just right', so then it can be called NPOV. It still appears to me from my widespread reading of history, that the term is basically "Empire" in origin. The claim that some mixed-up ancient Romans mentioned a similar sounding term on a couple of occasions doesn't count for a whole lot. Otherwise the Iberian Peninsula would be called Hispaniola, or something similiar, and France would not be France. PurpleA (talk) 15:44, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

The way I read the quote, "isle of Britain" is a reference to Great Britain rather than the British Isles. waggers (talk) 15:58, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that Jeanne Boleyn's point is that the term "British Isles" did not exist way back then, if I understand it correctly. It's just another interesting point, and may not influence the present article too much, but the ref could be added if need be. PurpleA (talk) 16:23, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

That was exactly my point, Purple Arrow. The quote seemed to imply that Britain was not meant to include the island of Ireland back in 1560-at least that's what I have gathered from Throckmorton's words.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:56, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

The Union of the Crowns occurred in 1603 with the assent of King James I of England to the Throne (i.e., the House of Stuart). The term British (i.e., British = (English + Welsh + Scottish + Irish) ) meant something after 1603 ... hence the term British Isles.

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 03:34, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Isle of Britain was used by Throckmorton as early as 1560, with the pointed exclusion of Ireland; hence Ireland was not regarded as British in the 16th century by the English-at least that is what I conclude from the ambassador's words. It is likely that due to the House of Tudor's Welsh descent, the term British with it's Celtic implications was introduced with the express purpose of gradually replacing the Anglo-Saxon derived term English.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:27, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Nothing can be read into the ambassador's words other than what he says, and to do so would be both POV and OR. What he says is that there are two queens in the island of Britain, which was perfectly true. He says nothing at all about Ireland or how it was regarded, and there is no reason why he should have, either. He simply doesn't mention the British Isles at all, so his words have no relevance here. ðarkuncoll 08:44, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Have contributors to this discussion read this reference - Denys Hay, The use of the term "Great Britain" in the Middle Ages, Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland, 1955-56, pp.55-66, cited on the "Great Britain" page? For example, on p.63 it states: "Continental geographers seem generally to have regarded the area as the "British Isles": we find the phrase, for instance, in Sebastian Minister's Cosmographia which was first printed in 1544 and which was constantly reprinted in the ensuing century...." Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I have read most of it and from what I can conclude is that Ireland was not considered to have been a part of the Isles of Great Britain. Brittany was referred to but not Ireland. Tarkuncoll, seeing as Elizabeth held the title of Queen of England, France and Ireland, it is significant that Throckmorton said isle and not isles. I can only conclude that Ireland was regarded by 16th century Englishmen as an island separate from Britain, not only geographically (which is an obvious fact), but also historically. I have no agenda here, I'm just striving for historical accuracy. I have stated before, that I personally have no quarrel with the term British Isles, but it doesn't seem to have included Ireland before the 17th century.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I seem to recall watching a TV series recently in the UK (I've no idea if it was shown Ireland) by Nicholas Crane on a book called Britannia by William Camden (see here). The book is a piece of travel journalism, covering Camden's trip across England/Scotland/Wales AND Ireland. Throughout the series, Crane emphasises that the book - published in 1586 - is almost definitely an attempt by the author to culturally claim the entire Isles under the one crown and name, hence Britannia. What this indicates to me is that any sources from this period C16th-C18th comes from a time of change in the relationship between Britain and Ireland (and indeed England and Scotland - Wales seems to have been subsumed by the English many years previously), culminating in the 1801 Union, during which some people may well not have included Ireland in the term British Isles, and which some may have done. The real problem with these arguments is not quite as Tharkun argued - though I pretty much agree with him - but is rather the problem that this article faces in general, namely the impossibility of inferring general term use from particular sources. Clearly this becomes more and more problematic in the historic record as sources become fewer and fewer, but is not necessarily a straight forward one contemporarily either. --Pretty Green (talk) 13:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

It appears that the term British referred primarily to Wales and Brittany in medieval times, and only gradually began to include Scotland, and later, Ireland. Of course, Henry VII chose to emphasise his partial Welsh ancestry with allusions to a possible descent from King Arthur. It's interesting that the terms Britain and British were introduced when the Tudor monarchs occupied the throne of England.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Quite. From the book "Journey to Avalon" by Chris Barber and David Pykitt: "Through his Welsh grandfather, Henry [Tudor] traced his descent from the ancient British kings and proudly saw himself as the successor of King Arthur...Henry appointed a commission to chronicle his descent from the Welsh princes and British kings. It is significant that Henry adopted the Red Dragon of Cadwaladr as one of the supporters of his arms to stress his claimed descent from the ancient kings of Britain...Henry became so obsessed with the traditions of King Arthur that he even decided that his first son should be named Arthur, so that he would one day fulfill the ancient prophecy by becoming King Arthur the Second..." Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:53, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

My theory is that he became obsessed with his Welsh ancestry to bolster up his claim to the English throne which frankly, he did usurp from the legitimate Plantagenet king Richard III. By stressing his descent from King Arthur- a British king, Henry served to reinforce his own extremely tenuous claim to the English succession. By right of primogeniture, his wife, Elizabeth of York was the rightful heir to the throne.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

King Arthur only comes down in the form of ledgend, and almost certainly did not exist. Much of the sources from this period appear pretty dubious. In Roman times British would have meant England & Wales, with Scotland (Alba) was excluded, so much for the term 'British' to include the whole of the island. My point here is that much of the reference material is completely debatable and could be taken "out" of the article at some stage into the future. PurpleA (talk) 16:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

The British Isles By Hugh Kearney

http://books.google.com/books?id=3ocswPZVkVkC&pg=PA9&dq=%22British+Isles%22#PPA13,M1

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 04:02, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Consensus Procedure

Hi - I've replaced the word "many" as there wasn't a consensus to remove it. I've checked the Talk page and the archives - if I'm wrong, please point me to the appropriate consensus-reaching discussion. --HighKing (talk) 19:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Bloody Hell.

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 22:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

What does the above comment, have to do with the discussion? GoodDay (talk) 14:38, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Jack pointed out this discussion and the latest edit summary to the article shows that the consensus appears to have been reached here, although judging by the subsequent discussions, many people object....  :-) --HighKing (talk) 14:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Excuse my pessemism, but I think many will object to this. Oh well. GoodDay (talk) 14:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

That was a joke! I even put a smiley in. While I missed the consensus, I'm happy that procedure was followed which is the only objection I had. --HighKing (talk) 17:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I object to the term "many" being readded, the current wording was agreed by the majority and arguments were given as to why "many" should not be readded before. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Let's close this. I'm not reopening the debate. A consensus was reached on the opening paragraph, it just wasn't clear from subsequent discussions, and I am most certainly not reopening the debate again. Apologies for making it seem like I was. --HighKing (talk) 16:58, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

"British" Isles

So, why do all the Irish articles such as Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, and, well, all of the rest of them have no mention of what British wikipedians term the "British Isles"? Surely, the absense of the term does not reflect the "many" objections to this British nationalist term? Then again, maybe the British know fullwell that the term "British Isles" is entirely a product of their nationalist claims to Ireland and feel more comfortable denying this reality. The Irish, on the other hand, live in Ireland and know what the British are really about. Cue British censorship of the Irish! 86.42.96.251 (talk) 23:44, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary, the term is Ancient Greek in origin. It has nothing to do with the British state. The reason why those articles have no mention of it is because of politically motivated censorship of an opposite nature to what you appear to be suggesting. ðarkuncoll 00:28, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Except of course that the term is not Ancient Greek in origin. It's a British invention. As the article itself says The term "British Isles" entered the English language in the seventeenth century as the description of Great Britain, Ireland and the surrounding islands, but was not in common use until the first half of the nineteenth century and, in general, the modern notion of "Britishness" only started to become common after the 1707 Act of Union. While it is probably the most common term used to describe the islands, use of this term is not universally accepted and is sometimes rejected in Ireland.. So give the "Ancient Greek" argument a rest, eh Tharky? --HighKing (talk) 01:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

The term had entered English by the 16th century at the latest (long before the English ever described themselves as British) probably through the writings of John Dee - who was merely Anglicising a Latin phrase that had been revived by European geographers (i.e. with no English axe to grind) from about the 1490s. This was a revival of a Classical term derived from Ancient Greek. So please stop trying to claim it was somehow invented out of thin air by the English. It is Ancient Greek. ðarkuncoll 08:55, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense. All Dee's biographers agree that he was motivated by a desire to create a new England called Britain which was inspired by the myths of King Arthur and other "British" legendary figures (as a quick search of "John Dee" and "imperialism" in Google Books confirms). It was Dee who coined the phrase "British Empire" as well as "British Isles". This is well established. If you read any of his work, or books about him, you would not say something as dishonest as he had 'no English axe to grind". And to say "British Isles" is a Greek term is about as accurate as saying the Swastika is simply a Hindu symbol of peace. You don't dispossess a people for centuries, strip them of their language, laws and culture - all in the name of the "British" - and then expect to have the natives accept the term "British Isles" on their land. Life doesn't work like that, much as it clearly annoys all you British jingoistic types. 78.16.116.115 (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Political cooperation -> Politics?

Perhaps the 'Political Cooperation' section would be better renamed 'Politics' (or something similar), and expanded somewhat? The political cooperation stuff is great, but the political history of the islands also includes its fair share of less cooperative episodes. Apologies if this has been discussed previously, I didn't fancy reading through 26 pages of archives. --hippo43 (talk) 04:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Given this is a geography article I think the whole section should go, possibly a new article on? --Snowded (talk) 07:29, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Very good point. Bin it. Personally, I don't see a need for another article - there are already plenty on British, Irish and British-Irish history and politics, as well as History of the British Isles etc. --hippo43 (talk) 08:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

If, as Snowded says, the article is [exclusively] a geography article, why do we have all that guff about how the Irish don't like the notion? MidnightBlue (Talk) 14:45, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Regretfully, this article will never be purely geographical. GoodDay (talk) 14:47, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. Anyway, I agree that the section should be renamed as suggested. MidnightBlue (Talk) 14:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

The "guff", old bean, is from all you British claiming that this term is another harmless apolitical term that holds no political claim. Just another "accident" of history without any connection to the past few centuries of British occupation, dispossession, sectarianism, and bigotry against the Irish people. Funny how all these "coincidences" seem to have the same British political agenda to assert control and ownership over Ireland. Whoops! 78.16.116.115 (talk) 21:27, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Your pathetic and offensive rant adds nothing to the debate about the article. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:59, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with BritishWatcher. Like any Irishman I have issues with the term 'British Isles' but the way you're going about your business means that there will be no positive changes to the article.MusicInTheHouse (talk) 23:08, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

More myopic ill-judged naïve nonsense. This "BritishWatcher" individual as with this "MidnightBlueMan" character are both by their own definitions rabid British nationalists - just have a look at their user pages and the Butcher's Apron that is flying on their respective pages. They speak of "offensive"? They, and all their blood-soaked British ilk who have stolen our lands, subjugated the Irish people, and continue to assert supremacy over Ireland via this "British isles" term are racist and offensive beyond words. No amount of British people in agreement with fellow members of their own tribe here in this discussion will detract from the putrid reality of these people. You people mistake the British nationalist majority for consensus on this article. There has never been consensus for the current version - never. The culture of that majority and its underlying anti-Irishness and anti-Catholicism is reprehensible from beginning to end. Oh, and spare me your sycophancy and its utter naivety about the nature of these people and the atavistic hatred which they collectively hold for the Irish. 78.16.116.115 (talk) 03:07, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello 78.16.116.115. It seems that you have appointed yourself the sole judge of what is "Irish". First of all, the Island of Ireland is where the Irish people live. Secondly, the Island of Great Britain is where the English, Welsh, Scottish people live. The British Isles are BOTH the Island of Ireland and the Island of Great Britain TAKEN TOGETHER, and the British people are the English, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish people all TAKEN TOGETHER ... as a group. ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 04:40, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I will be charitable and assume you have simply made a mistake above. British people can be used for the English, Welsh, Scotts and NORTHERN Irish (where they have not opted for citizenship of Ireland. --Snowded (talk) 05:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello Snowded. The Irish people are now divided into two groups, the Northern Irish, and the Republican Irish. The former live in the Province of Northern Ireland, whereas the latter live in the Republic of Ireland. BOTH the Province of Northern Ireland, and the Republic of Ireland are located upon the Island of Ireland. ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 05:36, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I think I and others know that, the problem is with your phrase: the British people are the English, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish people all TAKEN TOGETHER ... as a group which is not only false, but may also be considered provocative so I suggest you withdraw it. --Snowded (talk) 05:49, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello Snowded. How is "the British people are the English, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish people all TAKEN TOGETHER ... as a group"(i) in-error?

(ii). provocative? Why? ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 06:01, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Because a substantial number of the Irish people are not British (hence it is in error. If you want to know why it is provocative then look at the edit history above. I really can't believe I am having to explain this or constantly reformat your comments. Please learn to use indenting consistently and sign your comments without a carriage return. --Snowded (talk) 06:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello Snowded. (1). Do not give me advise on how to post. (2). The Republican Irish are no longer "British" ... fine. The Northern Irish are still "British", and the Northern Irish are still Irish, therefore the term "British" is still valid group term.ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 06:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Get your formatting right and there will be no need to give you advise, It is explained here . What you need to say is that the the British people are the English, Welsh, Scottish and NORTHERN Irish people. The use of Irish without the qualification is factually incorrect and provocative. --Snowded (talk) 06:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Snowded ... do not tell me how to post. I shall post in the style that I please. Read Set Theory. (i). Let "British" be a set containing the elements "English", "Welsh", "Scottish", and "Irish". (ii). Let "Irish" be a sub-set containg the elements "Northern-Irish", and "Republican-Irish". If the element "Republican-Irish" possesses a Cardinal-Value of the Null-Set, Ø, (i.e, the "empty-set") ... then the "British" group term is still has elements with NON-ZERO Cardinal-Values. ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 07:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not telling you, its Wikipedia practice, please learn it. Your proposition (i) is false and insulting, it also indicates that you have paid no attention to the debates on this page or to simple logic. After I have posted this I am deleted the entire sequence. --Snowded (talk) 07:26, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

If you delete it please make sure u remove the offensive crap from that IP user who started this dispute. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:04, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

"who started this dispute"? Well, as they say a dog does not give up his bone no matter how ill-gotten it is. And your particular bone is a few centuries old. And so it is with all three (at least) of our Union Jack flying British nationalist editors who have hijacked this article to advance their little Englander politics. As for your notion that people who live in Ireland are actually in reality "British", well that just shows the extent to which this article is under the control of an irredentist marginal subculture of British nationalism that is intent upon imposing their identity upon the Irish people. "Consensus"? You must be joking. 213.202.171.79 (talk) 13:44, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

If you don't like this article why don't you go here [2] and edit to your heart's content. MidnightBlue (Talk) 13:54, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Mandatory Registration, it's only a matter of time, folks. GoodDay (talk) 15:04, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

If Midnight Blue wants to keep British POV dominating this article maybe we need two "forks" - a British Version and an International Version? Sarah777 (talk) 16:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Some would argue, it's an Irish Version and an International Version. I see it as all three. GoodDay (talk) 16:14, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I can't be held responsible for the myopia of those "some". Sarah777 (talk) 16:19, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Why do I have a quizzy feeling? Must be something I ate. GoodDay (talk) 16:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

And I gotta say this particular incident seems to be a good argument for letting IPs in - in this case they are supporting WP:NPOV against attack from British Nationalism. Sarah777 (talk) 16:21, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

That's why I've got a quizzy feeling. GoodDay (talk) 16:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Edit Warring

Hiya folks, is this article gonna have to be protected again? GoodDay (talk) 16:06, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Would Snowded and other please stop editing warring here. There is no "consensus" for any particular wording and their certainly isn't any for reverting every non British POV that you don't like. Debate the issue; stop warring. I have restored the version that was subject to tag team reverting and I will continue to restore it untill the issue is fully debated. Sarah777 (talk) 16:09, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The stable version should remain until it is debated - I am pro the change - but not pro it being forced on the article.MusicInTheHouse (talk) 16:11, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

You're a tough lady, Sarah. Here's hoping you'll settle this dispute, soon. GoodDay (talk) 16:12, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no "stable version". Sarah777 (talk) 16:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

And if a certain group of British editors cannot resist using their numerical strength to impose British POV in every nook and cranny of this article it will be time to propose a move of this article to "Great Britain and Ireland". I will not hesitate to do so if the warring continues. Sarah777 (talk) 16:27, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

For historical reasons: I'll always support this article's current title. GoodDay (talk) 16:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

For historical reasons: I'll always support the British subjugation of the Irish people. 213.202.171.79 (talk) 17:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I would love to see you try to justify such a stupid move Sarah, it is with out doubt pushing your own biased point of view. I am very sorry you can not accept the fact that the British Isles is where we all live, just because you do not like something doesnt mean you can change things as you wish.

We happen to live in Europe, there are millions of British people who hate that idea and would love for the UK to be removed from maps of Europe, but we can not change things by silly crying. Get over it. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:42, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't live in a place called "The British Isles" by anyone around here. I live in Dublin. The "Europe" situation is a ridiculous attempt as analogy. A real analogy would be German editors insisting Austria was part of a place called "Greater Germany". "silly crying" and "Get over it." breach WP:CIVIL. Take that as your first warning. Sarah777 (talk) 16:55, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Your claims that certain British editors are pushing a point of view simply by defending fact is hardly inline with the rules either. What ever happened to assume good faith? And i never accused you of silly crying. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Good faith rarely comes into British/Irish disputes. The vast majority on both sides vote along national lines. Sarah777 (talk) 17:01, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, with all due respect when I see an editor who defines his contributions on wikipedia with a massive Union Jack (praising an anti-Irish and anti-Catholic sectarian monarch, mind you) he has nailed his colours so strongly to the mast that all I see is the enemy of my people, the bigots and racists who stole and raped this land for centuries. Assumptions of goof faith do not withstand this reality. Lastly, to then claim that us Irish are really British (who have lost our way, apparently) just demonstrates how disconnected the poster is from historical, geographical, and political facts. 213.202.171.79 (talk) 17:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

lmao and clearly you have no bias on this matter im sure. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not even a Wikipedia editor, but in the last few days I've been reading up on various articles about... erm... let's call it "a number of islands to the north-west of France and the south-east of Iceland". And in every single one of those articles the discussion page is full of loud, but highly-polarised arguments by the same 2 or 3 people trying to justify their edit wars with emotive statements. If you really, honestly want to create a balanced and NPOV wikipedia, please remember to uphold the spirit of Wikipedia by citing anything that could be argued or misconstrued. If you believe Ireland is part of the British Isles, state it and post a credibly reference. If you believe it is not, state it and post a credible reference. Don't post insults, or state one or t'other simply because you "believe" it is true. If you want to start your own wiki that entirely embraces your view of the world, do what various groups have done and create one. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.183.201 (talk) 21:15, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 21:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

As outlined in the procedures for a requested move which may be controversial I am setting up a section here for discussion.

I must be getting old or becoming a softy. I prefer the article to remain named British Isles for historical reasons. However, if it's to be re-named? Britain and Ireland would be acceptable (though my personal choice would be The Isles). GoodDay (talk) 16:53, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose - The British Isles is widely used to describe the Islands of Ireland and Great Britain which can be found on many maps and encyclopedias written in the English language. This is the English language wikipedia, i fail to see why we should attempt to rename something just because a couple of editors are unhappy with history. The article is correctly named and there are a huge list of sources available to justify it. Strongly oppose such a crazy move, Can i have the Europe article / title changed if i dont like the fact the UK is part of Europe? BritishWatcher (talk) 16:57, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

@G'Day: Britain and Ireland is more common and is the certainly the common usage in Ireland; I'm trying to allow for those who say the BI term is "only geographical" and then go on to include the Channel Isles or start arguing that Britain does not include NI. The "merely geographical" becomes very political when any alternative name is suggested. Sarah777 (talk) 16:59, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

@BritishWatcher (name makes my point above!) I have explained once already that the attempt to use Europe as analogous is simply stupid. Do you really need me to explain why? Sarah777 (talk) 17:04, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Politics & Geography tend to be intertwined, as we all know. GoodDay (talk) 17:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

From your point of view it may be Sarah, but you need to accept the fact that many people consider the British Isles just as much a location as they do Europe. Im sorry but i can not see how we can rename parts of the world just because we don't like something. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:07, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Europe is the name of a continent. There is no state called "Europe"; what many British object to is being in the EU - and you can leave that anytime you wish and nobody will force a name on you that suggests you are still part of the EU. We left Britain and the British (some of them) are still trying refer to Ireland as British. As I said, calling Austria part of Greater Germany on Wiki is an analogy. Europe/Britain is not. This is a matter of fact and logic, not opinion. Sarah777 (talk) 17:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

No Sarah its not just about the European Union. There are plenty of people here who do not consider themselves to be European, infact some would find that just as offensive as you might find being called British. The point is we can not change fact simply because we dont like it. "British Isles" can be found on many sources, and is used very regularly by the BBC which is a major source for wikipedia. British Isles is also mentioned on Canadas entry of the CIA world Fact Book as well as being found on other major news sources from Fox News to CNN. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

"BBC which is a major source for wikipedia." Part of the problem surely? You won't find it used on RTE. So The British Broadcasting Corporation, British State-owned TV station is used to support imposing British nationalist POV on Wiki! Irony so thick you could walk on it. Sarah777 (talk) 18:27, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, you do find RTE using it. here. Canterbury Tail talk 20:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

This argument has been done to death on numerous occasions. Best just to ignore the stupidity - again, unless the POV pushers are in danger of getting their way. MidnightBlue (Talk) 17:16, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

As things stand, the POV pushers have their way. And the "stupidity" is all yours I assure you. Sarah777 (talk) 18:27, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it has been done to death so many times that the evidence for widespread objection to this term is beyond contradiction. The sole reason this article remains under the name "British Isles" is because there is a vociferous and dedicated British nationalist clique of editors on this particular article who are determined to censor Irish objections and make claims that the Irish people are actually British. This article is about numbers; it has never been about consensus, in particular since the words 'term' and 'many' were removed in the past 6 weeks. Reason has long, long gone out the window here and anti-Irishness, the default position of Britishness since the latter identity was invented in the seventeenth century, is holding this article hostage. 213.202.171.79 (talk) 17:42, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

• Irish nationalist here, saying oppose to the move. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 17:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Bastun, "nationalism" isn't the same as "nationality". And we are not voting (yet), we are discussing. You have contributed nothing to the discussion. Sarah777 (talk) 18:20, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I also oppose the move, Sarah. The British Isles is just a geographic term; I even asked my Fianna Fail-voting ex-husband and he considers it so. His family have been republicans for many generations!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:33, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Jeanne, we long ago established on this issue that "British Isles" is not simply a geographical term. Sarah777 (talk) 18:38, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm well aware of the difference between nationalism and nationality, Sarah, and seeing as you don't my politics, I don't think you're in any way qualified to suggest I used the wrong term. Nor is it your perogrative to decide whose views get counted here and whose don't. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 23:03, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

This article has long been at British Isles and I wouldn't advise moving it. I tend to stand with the belief that though the term is unfortunate and may be uncommon within Ireland itself, and particularly the Republic, there's no evidence to suggest that any alternative term either a. does the job of describing Great Britain, Ireland, their immediate islands, the Isle of Man, the Shetland and Orkney Islands and the Channel Islands or b. is used internationally more commonly than 'British Isles'. Whilst Great Britain and Ireland is clearly acceptable as an alternative most of the time, there are still situations where it might be inappropriate as a term, not least if you are trying to differentiate the two islands of Great Britain and Ireland form the other islands in the archipalego. The article should remain at this title and objectively describe the issues with the name in a considered and adult manner, as well as offering some of the alternative names used. 'The Isles' or 'These Isles' works fine in daily use but for obvious reasons it is not an actual toponym appropriate for an encycolpedia.Pretty Green (talk) 18:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. This discussion has been done to death, and I don't see a rationale provided for this most recent proposal. Rockpocket 18:51, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Do you not? Sarah777 (talk) 22:25, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

No, I do not. Would you care to provide one, or are you limiting yourself to "witty" repartee today? Rockpocket 22:54, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - "British Isles" and "Britain and Ireland" are not synonymous and don't mean the same thing. Canterbury Tail talk 20:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

True Ben. "British Isles" mean they are all British; Britain and Ireland means they are not. Well spotted. Daft vote though. Sarah777 (talk) 22:25, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

No, as you know the British doesn't imply ownership, any more than Irish implies ownership of Irish Sea, Indian for Indian Ocean etc. Britain and Ireland isn't the same as British Isles, they don't cover the same area, same islands etc. Britain and Ireland is less than British Isles. It's like the difference between Europe, and Continental Europe. Canterbury Tail talk 13:36, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

>>> Comment: I think you'll find that many British contributors here have said precisely the opposite to what you have just said, specifically that the Irish are British by virtue of the fact that they/we live in a place which the aforesaid contributors term the "British Isles". And that's just the British on this page. 86.42.96.251 (talk) 13:41, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Can you tell us how many British contributors have said all the people of Ireland are British? ive only seen one person make that claim but perhaps i missed something. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:34, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - The "British Isles" is the only term used and known by us "Colonials" in the Dominions that moved away from the "Home-Islands" (i.e., the decendents of the English, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish ... collectively known as group as the British ). ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 21:11, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, at least you are honest. Sarah777 (talk) 22:26, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - As far as I can tell, British Isles is the most commonly used term for the archipelago, so should be used per WP:UCN, irrespective of the obvious fact that some find the term offensive. I may be wrong, so I'm really open to discussion on this using references, but I believe 'British Isles' is the most common term. 'The isles' sounds a particularly dreadful alternative, as it is so rarely used. --hippo43 (talk) 23:17, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

There is clearly no support for such a silly move, can we end this process before more people have to waste their time just because Sarah is unhappy about the past 800 years of history. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:42, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

• Strong Support. It's beyond belief that the current title has lasted this long. Just look at the politics of the people supporting it. Do rational, fair-minded and even somewhat liberal British people really want to be associated with those people? 86.42.96.251 (talk) 12:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Even liberal British people would know we all live in the British isles and the vast majority of them would not encourage or support renaming an article just because one or two people are unhappy with history. Get over it, we cant redraw the map. The BBC which is accused of a liberal bias by many even describe it as the British Isles. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Odd then that the BBC avoids using it and opts instead for talking about the UK on their weather forecasts. Maybe there is a BNP BBC that we don't get here in Ireland? Oh, and don't bother looking at all those international media outlets from National Geographic to Philips maps who have dropped the use of the term "British Isles" (I've just noticed all the sources testifying to organisations dropping the term have been removed from this article. My oh my, the politics and censorship in this article just gets better.) 86.42.96.251 (talk) 13:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Lmao the BBC say the British Isles all the time and plenty of other sources describe it as such as well. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Would you care to show us proof of the last time you heard your favourite term on the BBC weather forecast? It doesn't happen, or else you must be getting a different BBC (perhaps playbacks from the 1950s?) to the rest of us here in the European Union? 86.42.96.251 (talk) 14:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Well here is a quick example. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/born_abroad/countries/html/overview.stm Ohhh look British Residence born abroad (Exluding Republic of Ireland) I wonder where the Republic of Ireland is? Ohhhh look its at the bottom in the table of British Residence born in the British Isles. I hear the BBC weatherman say British Isles all the time, this is pointless and considering the overwhelming opposition so far to a change we are all wasting our time. Thanks BritishWatcher (talk) 14:11, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, that's the most amazing BBC weather forecast that I have ever seen. Well done, BritishWatcher. I particularly liked the map of Britain on the top right-hand corner (above the heading "British Isles"). Much like this website, in fact: http://www.the-british-isles.com/ (oh, where's Ireland?) 14:25, 30 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.96.251 (talk)

You wanted an example of where the BBC has used the term since 1960s, i found you one. If you are so obsessed with weather forecasts how is this by the met office - http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/uk/radar/tech.html . Oh look they show the British Isles and even go to the effort of getting data from the Republic of Ireland to put on their nice little map. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:29, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

===> Still waiting to hear that term on the BBC weather forecast, as originally requested ....86.42.96.251 (talk) 14:33, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

It's the 21st century, anonIP. Try their |website. Oh, what's that in the dropdown...? Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 15:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. For the reasons I've touted for years. British Isles has been the historical name. GoodDay (talk) 13:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, if somebody hadn't also censored that aspect of this article you would know that this archipelago historically has far more than one name, among which is Islands of Westerm Europe, which occurs in the English language before that John Dee neologism "British Isles" does. "The historical name" indeed. 86.42.96.251 (talk) 14:00, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

In point of fact Nicholas Throckmorton first used the term British Isle in 1560, but was referring to England and Scotland, not Ireland. Seeing as the Welsh Tudors reigned in England and the Scottish Stuarts were next in line to the throne, it behooved the English to begin to think in terms of British.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:11, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

It's apparent, this move request isn't gonna get a consensus. Perhaps, we should consider closing? GoodDay (talk) 14:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, this was all nonsense and a waste of time. There is clearly no majority support for a change, infact the clear majority is opposed to the suggestion.BritishWatcher (talk) 15:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - British Isles includes the offshore islands that are not either Great Britain or Ireland (Channel Islands, Isle of Man, even Lundy or Anglesey). As such, it is a useful geographic term. - fchd (talk) 17:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Requested move - process?

Um, aren't moves that are likely to be controversial or contested supposed to actually be listed at WP:RM by the person initiating the request? Cos I can't find anything there about this one. (Or should I instead just be asking for this RM to be closed because of WP:SNOW?) Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 15:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I reckon it has to be listed at RM (in fact, I assumed it was). GoodDay (talk) 15:33, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

As the box at the top says The proposed move should have been noted at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Presuming this is an honest mistake and as the discussion has been operating for just one day, I've listed it there. --Pretty Green (talk) 16:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

So...let's try again, shall we?

It appears I got some procedural thingy wrong despite following the rules as I read them. OK. So Rock - could you list this for the move required? As you get upset about "half-assed" proposals maybe you'd try a "full-assed" one? Sarah777 (talk) 22:11, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

And Rock, the move required is to move the "British Isles" article to "Great Britain and Ireland". Sarah777 (talk) 22:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

To help this along and to remove any suspicion that I'm breaking any rules I hereby give the full extract on requesting potentially controversial moves: Sarah777 (talk) 22:28, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I suggest all rational editors just ignore this. It's nothing short of trolling. MidnightBlue (Talk) 22:30, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

That is not an argument and is a breach of WP:CIVIL. Sarah777 (talk) 22:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

For future reference the above user describes herself as a troll [3] so do not be intimidated by attempts to wave WP policy around in a threatening way. Wiki-Ed (talk) 23:10, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

No, I did not so describe myself. But to try an excavate a 2 year old joke and produce it as "evidence" must qualify as breach of WP:NPA. Sarah777 (talk) 23:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Sarah, following procedure correctly isn't the main issue (some one will inevitably fix that for you). The issue is that you need to provide a rationale for making the proposal, and this rationale should be based on our policies and guidelines. As far as I can tell you reason for proposing the move is punishment for a content dispute ("if a certain group of British editors cannot resist using their numerical strength to impose British POV in every nook and cranny of this article it will be time to propose a move of this article to "Great Britain and Ireland". I will not hesitate to do so if the warring continues.")

That is not an acceptable reason for moving an article. If you think it should be moved write a reasoned justification for the proposal, supported by the relevant policies, and lets have a reasonable discussion. Persistent proposals without justifications are simply going to be considered disruptive and closed. Rockpocket 22:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Rock, the name is in breach of WP:NPOV, period. What triggered my proposal at this precise time is irrelevant. I was perhaps prepared to live with a POV name for a while longer but seeing British editors using my forbearance (and that of others) to extend the imposition of British political POV throughout the article made the case for another attempt to eliminate this cancer on Wiki more urgent. To suggest that this is "without justifications" is outrageous and combined with "going to be considered disruptive and closed" is dictatorial and threatening and merely illustrates the nature of the threat to WP:NPOV that we see here. Sarah777 (talk) 22:55, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I think I have covered the technicalities now (so no easy excuse to 'close') - so any closing of this debate before a wider audience gets to have an input would be naked censorship and political imposition, IMHO. This is a serious issue Rock, and your facile comments must indicate that you may be partisan in relation to the issue - I know you aren't stupid. Let us have a full debate for a reasonable period of a week or so. If the POV folk still manage to maintain the status quo, then we let it sit for a few months. That is the reasonable way to proceed. Sarah777 (talk) 23:03, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Then I suggest you explain - at the top of the very top of discussion section - a detailed explanation of why this name is lacking under our neutrality policy (since throwing acronyms around doesn't tell us very much) and why your suggestion is an improvement. Justify why the current name isn't the common name and why your proposal is. You may see this is an issue of imperialism, but the rest of us see it as a naming issue to be dealt with by our policies. I'm not being facile, Sarah. If you want a proposal to be taken seriously, make a serious argument for it. If one is not forthcoming, then there is zero reason to support. Rockpocket 00:10, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not in the least bit reasonable. By your own admission you've just said that even if you fail you'll continue to keep rocking the boat. There is no point to this exercise, which seems to serve no purpose except to disrupt. Wiki-Ed (talk) 23:10, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

It is very reasonable. Are you suggesting that this issue must never be revisited? "Rocking the boat" is your term for trying to support WP:NPOV on Wiki?! Speaks volumes. Sarah777 (talk) 23:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

We shouldnt have to revisit something which we just finished talking about a couple of hours before with an overwhelming majority voting against the idea. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Nobody is asking you to revisit anything. A total electorate of 8 editors on a discussion (not vote) open for a few hours is hardly an overwhelming anything. Sarah777 (talk) 23:55, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

As you like waving beans around so much - isn't accusing everyone who disagrees with you of being "POV folk" a breach of WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF? Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 23:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

No. I don't accuse everyone of that. Only the POV warriors. Sarah777 (talk) 23:55, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The British Isles are not an archipelago

I've brought this up before, but it's worth repeating, because the article as it currently stands looks ill-informed and ignorant. The issue here is that archipelago doesn't simply mean "group of islands" - Wikipedia articles notwithstanding. There's a clue in the name, because the word actually means "chiefly sea" - in other words, an archipelago is a group of small islands separated by more sea than land. This is certainly not the case with the British Isles, which comprise two very large islands surrounded by lots of small ones. ðarkuncoll 16:54, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

What was that about obscurantism? ;) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

That the so-called "province", or region, of the RoI named Ulster serves no practical purpose. But "archipelago" is simply wrong, and makes Wikipedia look stupid. ðarkuncoll 17:28, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The "Ulster" comedy continues, and the acting improves. Great entertainment, TharkunColl. Who said the stage imperialists died when Britannia stopped ruling the waves? 86.42.96.251 (talk) 18:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I think your being overly faithful to the greek meaning. The OED defines archipelago as "an extensive group of islands". Encarta has no problem calling the British Isles an archipelago. Britannica doesn't use the term but they seem to boycot it altogether even with the Aegean Islands. Eckerslike (talk) 18:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The BBC Style guide which has been mentioned in previous debates also uses the term archipelago to describe the British Isles and that includes the Republic of Ireland for that IP going around saying the BBC never use the term any more. "http://www.bbctraining.com/pdfs/newsstyleguide.pdf BritishWatcher (talk) 19:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes! The British Broadcasting Corporation canard once again. Sarah777 (talk) 22:22, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

"Even the BBC don't use the term anymore!" "Yes, they do - see." "Ah, well they would, they're British!" *sigh* Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 23:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Talking to yourself are you? *sigh* Sarah777 (talk) 00:02, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent)Well, if we're going to start accepting British guidelines....then The Permanent Committee on Geographical Names for British Official Use mandates the name of the state as Ireland. The PCGN is made up of among others - you guessed it - The BBC as well as other notable British government departments and British institutions. --HighKing (talk) 00:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

We are not talking about the name of the state we are talking about the British Isles which includes Britain, Ireland and all those little islands. BritishWatcher (talk) 00:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Sure, I know that. But it's funny that one the one hand, the BBC is used as a reason that the term "British Isles" is a valid name for the islands (and still in use today), but on the other hand, it's not good enough when we're debating that the name of the state is Ireland. Odd, huh? --HighKing (talk) 15:56, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Well we are going way off topic here but very few people dispute the true name of the state is Ireland, the debate on that matter is its ambigious and there for in a similar situation to Taiwan and China. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion

I came across this list of editors nationalities voting in a straw poll at talk Greece. I believe it was compiled due to a perceived bias on the part of the Greek editors. The following discussion took part on the Admin noticeboard concerning the pros and cons of the list. I actually disagreed with using such a list, but as everyone knows there have been accusations of British/Irish bias on the polls here concerning the naming of the article. Do any editors here think it would be a good idea to compile such a list, which would perhaps prove or disprove any such notion? Jack forbes (talk) 11:13, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, so long as we realise that NI editors are 60% British and can sort them out! Sarah777 (talk) 22:00, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Id have no problem with such a list being created and there are many positives to showing whos who although i do not think its needed in this case. Im sorry but this is a simple matter to resolve. There is no reasonable or well known alternative to British Isles. As pointed out by someone above, "Britain and Ireland" does NOT fit with what this article talks about because it includes many smaller islands as well which are not Britain or Ireland and ive heard no other alternative "common name".

The whole debate on changing the name has been a complete waste of time, the original vote which was closed yesterday showed overwhelming opposition to the silly proposal. The new vote which has been awfully laid out with no clear proposal being included at the vote shows a clear majoirty against the change in name. That Greek talk page seems to be fairly split with a large number supporting and a large number opposing, that is not the case here. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I also don't think it's needed in this case. Whatever about the term being less common now than it was, it's still the most common term. What might actually be more useful and save us all some time and energy is to look at this, and a remedy that was already applied to a certain editor for disruptive and aggressive behaviour. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 12:11, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

The list would also be pointless as it ignores that people might be of Irish descent but born in Britain. Or that you might have staunchly pro-British Irish and pro-Irish British. Additional divisive measures may seem like a good idea, to see where everyone lies, but in reality it merely becomes battlelines to be fought over. Lets stick to the guidelines and policies to be interpreted, not on nationalities. --Narson ~ Talk • 12:28, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Can't agree - it would show that the preponderance of voters against change are from the country after which they wish to name the isles. Sarah777 (talk) 22:02, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I have just noticed something else that i would like to point out. In the vote which was closed yesterday it was for a name change to Britain and Ireland. Sarah herself who started this new vote said "Britain and Ireland is more common and is the certainly the common usage in Ireland" and yet according to the tag at the top of the page the current rename debate is for changing it to "United Kingdom and Ireland". This would have huge implications (this is meant to be about a geographical location not two states) and cause huge confusion considering our country use to be called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This whole process is a complete mess and those who are seeking change dont seem to care what it is changed to aslong as its anything other than "British Isles" and yet the only claim to justify a change is some other term is used more than British Isles. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:40, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It may have appeared strange that I came up with this proposal considering I was against using a list, as I said on the admin noticeboard. I did though think that putting the suggestion forward and leaving it up to the editors concerned would be a good idea. I was actually hoping that if it was agreed on then the list would perhaps put to bed the idea of national bias, then perhaps there would be no talk of someone's block history. I do think incidentally that Sarah is being goaded a little here, we can all respond to someones proposal with a little less mockery, just disagree with her and get on with it. Jack forbes (talk) 12:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Sarah is being goaded?!

* "If Midnight Blue wants to keep British POV dominating this article maybe we need two "forks""

* "I can't be held responsible for the myopia of those "some"."

* "in this case they are supporting WP:NPOV against attack from British Nationalism."

* "if a certain group of British editors cannot resist using their numerical strength to impose British POV in every nook and cranny of this article"

* "As things stand, the POV pushers have their way. And the "stupidity" is all yours I assure you."

* "It is also falling out of use despite the determination of a group of British Nationalist editors to preserve British POV across a whole raft of Ireland-related articles."

* "I realise you ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer"

* "Ah yes! The British Broadcasting Corporation canard once again." (This after someone - on Sarah's side! - had specifically requested a demonstration of the BBC's use of the term).

* "your facile comments must indicate that you may be partisan in relation to the issue"

* "The British POV can tolerate no opposition." (To a known Irish editor)

* "Truely Bastun, you are either unique or...eh...economical with the truth."

Yes, there is goading going on here but it's pretty clear who's doing it. As pointed out above, Sarah has already been sanctioned by Arbcom for precisely the same behaviour that she's now returned to. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Great_Irish_Famine#Findings_of_fact and Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Great_Irish_Famine#Enforcement_2. She's still (supposed to be) on civility parole. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 13:10, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Virtually all of these were responses to goading, insults, sneers and personal attacks - including some from you Bastun. Plus, I don't "know" you are Irish; I can only judge by the improbability of anyone claiming to be ab "Irish Nationalist" getting so emotionally involved in defending the "British" Isles claims. You would be the very first in my extensive expierence. Sarah777 (talk) 22:16, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Jack I have not attacked or insulted Sarah however i have no problem saying i find this whole process a complete joke and waste of time. As i just mentioned the current tag at the top says we are voting for something different to what Sarah wanted yesterday. Its all a complete mess but what is very clear is there is no majority support for a change and theres been no attempt to justify a change. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:15, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, BW. looking at the first few posts before Sarah had much to say a couple of comments from two editors were as follow. "I suggest all rational editors just ignore this. It's nothing short of trolling". And, "For future reference the above user (Sarah) describes herself as a troll (a joke on her part) so do not be intimidated by attempts to wave WP policy in a threatening way". Not exactly words to begin a proposed move section. Like I said, disagree with her and move on, I know she is no shrinking violet but there is no need for anything more. Also, don't forget, the last poll lasted all of 2 days with very few editors involved. Could it be that she thought the vote was closed too soon? Jack forbes (talk) 13:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Like i said ive not attacked her, im not responsible for what others say although there has been a huge amount of abuse towards British editors by certain people. The vote may of been closed to soon, but someone should of undone the close by an IP if they thought that, not started it again. Especially as the vote yesterday was for "Britain and Ireland" and today we seem to be voting on changing it to "United Kingdom and Ireland". The whole things a complete joke. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I have blamed you for nothing BW. I only hope the discussion can continue in a more calm and civilized way. Jack forbes (talk) 14:04, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

• I come from a different angle on this, and have no problem with an article called "British Isles". Where I do have a problem is that the article is seemingly what is called a "pov-fork", and much of the content is a repeat of what is written in other articles. Some editors say it is the "common name", something which I doubt very much. I do agree that the term maybe used in the UK more often, and believe it or not, New Zealand, where I lived for some months. In my time in Australia, I never heard it being used in conversation at all. The article would best be about 10 lines in length, with links to the respective geographical areas, akin to Encyclopedia Britannica's historic treatment of the subject. To me, the term "British Isles" is a geo-political term, for that is how the term started out in life. That is an inalienable fact that not even Wikipedia can change. PurpleA (talk) 14:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

What was the geo-political motivation of the Ancient Greeks who invented it? ðarkuncoll 16:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

(yawn) Ancient Greeks didn't invent it. Read the article. --HighKing (talk) 16:27, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Is that a Support vote I detect there High King??? Sarah777 (talk) 22:19, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

(yawn more). They did. Please read the article. Just stating something over and over again that is so patently false doesn't make it true, you know. ðarkuncoll 21:51, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Tharky...is there a reference somewhere that the term was invented by the Ancient Greeks?...or did Ptolomey translate a Roman term into Greek only for it to be reinterpreted back into Latin by Jacobus Angelus and reinterpreted into English, before Union with Great Britain, as Brittanic Islands but after Union with Great Britain,as BI subtley blurring the distinction between Brittanic and British and Islands and Isles along the way? Lucian Sunday (talk) 16:27, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

What's the difference in meaning between "Britannic" and "British", and "Islands" and "Isles"? ðarkuncoll 21:51, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

British Isles British Islands Lucian Sunday (talk) 22:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

That's just a modern legal invention. It has no bearing on the meanings of the individual words. ðarkuncoll 22:29, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Are we debating individual words now? Really? --HighKing (talk) 23:59, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Call me a gambling man, but I'm betting that this latest RM proposal isn't being accepted. GoodDay (talk) 15:34, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I like PurpleA's suggestion. We make this a simple article with pipelinks to replicated material. --Snowded (talk) 16:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll go for that. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

There is a significant section that covers the natural history, geography and geology of the Isles. I see no good argument for removing these (though some could probably be extensively pruned, especially where there are daughter articles) as the term encapsulates a geographical entity that no other article does. The cultural, sport, demographics, transport, political co-operation and perhaps even languages could all probably go though, since they are all covered extensively in the articles about the incorporated states/countries/nations. Rockpocket 16:42, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Agree with that amendment Rockpocket, its then all geography and thus no issue. As you say the other material can be piplinked and referenced. This is then a pure geography article, it does not need qualification and hopefully ceases to be a unionist-republican battleground --Snowded (talk) 16:57, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. The article content forms a useful reference to those common areas of interest throughout the islands. The material is generally not duplicated to a large extent. We especially need to maintain the Political co-operation (rename to Politics) section, and those sections that deal with issues that cross national and international boundaries, all-Ireland sport, for example. On the other hand, we could easily lose the material about the so-called controversy of the name. That is duplicated elsewhere. MidnightBlue (Talk) 17:36, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like an attempt to make it political with all the associated issues. If you do that then you cannot loose the controversy on the name and there is a stronger case for renaming. Sport is well covered in Ireland and of the other material would be better there. This is a legacy Geography article. --Snowded (talk) 17:46, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

FWIW there is a - currently pretty crap - article on British-Irish relations that the political stuff can go to. I was going to add a hatnote in this article, but it is protected. Pfainuk talk 20:05, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with MidnightBlue - the islands are not just a geographical entity. There are obvious social/cultural/linguistic commonalities within them, and distinct from neighbouring continental areas. Those aspects should really be in this article, even if it means putting up with this sort of debate at times. --hippo43 (talk) 21:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. While the British Isles is an outmoded term for a geographical entity, there are too many obvious dissimilarities between Ireland and Britain to make sense of describing commonalities without essentially splitting the article. I agree with Snowded suggestion. --HighKing (talk) 23:59, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

So we should have an article about the islands, but not cover the people who live on them? We shouldn't discuss migration among these islands? Or mention that the people who live on them generally speak the same language, watch the same stuff on TV, support the same football teams... --hippo43 (talk) 00:14, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, as an alternative, we could talk about the people on Britain and Ireland if that's what you mean....would probably cover 95% of what needs to be said..... --HighKing (talk) 00:16, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Leaving the title issue aside, there is a group of islands which surely merits haveing a general article about them. The article should include sections about history, geography, people, flora/fauna blah blah blah. These sections should cover the similarities and differences across the islands, and also link to more detailed main articles (History of group of hypothetical islands, for example). This would be the case if the article was about 'Britain and Ireland', 'Balearic Islands', or 'nameless group of islands in the North Atlantic' Or am I missing something? --hippo43 (talk) 00:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes you are, the fact that the term is no longer a valid political one, the history of its use and various other things. Hence the suggest to make it purely geographical (indisputable but still not liked by some on one extreme) and reference the other material, or expand other articles which do not carry the historical baggage. That was with a bit of luck we reduce conflict and prevent the quarterly emergence of the naming dispute and other issues. --Snowded (talk) 01:26, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm well aware of those issues (though can't really coment on "various other things"), however, my view on this is not dependent on the term being a "valid political one". The islands form an obvious group which is worth covering across all these characteristics, whether the article is titled 'British Isles' or 'Irish Isles'. The desire to avoid annoying debates should not determine what areas an article covers. Those who dislike the name will not dislike it any less if it is only applied in a geographical sense. Moreover, if this article is to be about geography only, then it should be renamed 'Geography of the British Isles.' If not, it will quickly be expanded by editors who (justifiably) think it should contain info on history, culture, society etc. If it is renamed 'Geography of the British Isles', then very quickly an article called 'British Isles' will (justifiably) be started, and will cover these areas in the islands. Trying to control what subject areas this should cover or what articles should be in Wikipedia, in order to avoid future disagreement, will not work. We can't have an article titled 'British Isles' and at the same time insist that it only cover 'Geography of the British Isles'. --hippo43 (talk) 02:56, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I think you are missing the point. BI is a geographical not a political term. There are aspects of its history and current political co-operation that are already covered elsewhere and can be linked. It is NPOV to suggest that there is something special about the people who reside in the British Isles, or maybe we should have a Britain and Canada article as well? There is a clear minority agenda to assert a BI Identity over a UK/Ireland one and that should be no more encouraged than the extreme nationalist position that seeks to change historical names. --Snowded (talk) 03:09, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

<deindent>No, not missing the point, just disagreeing with your point. I am not looking to use BI as a political term, but I don't believe we can be prescriptive in its usage. The British Isles (or whatever) is a group of islands which has similarities and differences in various areas. If there is an article about the islands, it is legitimate to discuss any of those major areas, just as it would be in any group of islands. To pretend that Ireland, the UK, IOM etc are not more similar than, say, the UK and France is daft. Excluding that material, if it meets WP:NPOV, WP:OR and WP:V, is itself asserting a POV. Your Canada example is ridiculous. If Britain and Canada were neighbouring islands, within a group, with shared history, culture, language etc, then we would obviously, and correctly, have an article about them. We would probably also have an edit war over the name 'Canadian Isles'. --hippo43 (talk) 03:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I ever mentioned France and I am sorry you find my example of Canada ridiculous but will not take offense. I think what you are failing to properly acknowledge is that Ireland (the state) left the British Empire, and the Commonwealth. It is legitimate for the British Isles article to reference that history of the peoples of that article. It is not legitimate for the article to be used to perpetuate a political position that ended in the 1920s. The proposal above is a way to avoid those debates while being true to the principles of WIkipedia. I commend it to you. --Snowded (talk) 04:14, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Then we agree on some of this. You're right that this article shouldn't be perpetuating a political position which ended in the 1920s. The social and cultural links, and shared history znd language, however, did not end at the same time. I'm not sure that avoiding disagreement is really true to the principles of Wikipedia - this seems to be a mechanism to sidestep WP:UCN, as well as give undue weight to the view that 'British Isles' is an unacceptable name, contrary to WP:NPOV. Avoiding POV material can be achieved by applying policy to the article - we just don't need to restrict what areas of content can and can't be covered.

--hippo43 (talk) 05:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

How very honest, through the use of a most dishonest word. "Commonalities", my eye. How about a disquisition on the "commonalities" between master and slave in the southern states? Let me start the opening line of your "British Isles" "commonalities": 'The nice British came and civilised the barbarous wilde Irishe savages who violently opposed the glorious civilisation and started a bloody campaign of violence against the nice peaceful British settlers....' Oh yes, such is the basis of the "commonalities" which all our rightwing British editors love to speak of, without of course saying anything about why the Paddies might not exactly be endeared to the term "British Isles" or indeed the British people when they are claiming hegemony over Ireland. Fortunately for the control of this article, the British exercise a strict censorship that prevents the airing of Irish views here. It's all just "commonalities". How civilised indeed. The sad thing is that you people genuinely believe you are a force for advancement in Ireland. I really despise your tribalism dressed up as enlightenment. It's the pretensions of it all that gall me. I know I speak for very, very, very many Irish people with those last two sentences. 86.42.96.251 (talk) 21:34, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Could an admin please block the above user. Thanks. MidnightBlue (Talk) 22:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I have warned IP.86, for the second time, that such nationalistic rhetoric is unacceptable here. These sorts of comments leave editors skating on very thin ice indeed. Rockpocket 22:39, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

By "such" I take it you mean "Irish Nationalist rhetoric" Rock, because the British rhetoric here has failed to move you to any comment or warnings whatever. Sarah777 (talk) 22:25, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't see other editors engaging in the same level of name-calling and soapboxing as as IP.86. If someone else does, they will get the same warnings. Rockpocket 02:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Im glad that the debate has moved on to article content and moved away from the silly Requested move, so can we please close that process now as its going to overwhelmingly fail so we can all focus just on content. Although i dont think much of the article text needs to be removed, i think its helpful to include content about political co operation within the islands. Just because this is about a geographic location doesnt mean we can not mention the people of these islands history and political co operation today. BritishWatcher (talk) 07:31, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

• Comment: This article will never move beyond the title "British Isles" that is currently over it. To deny this twenty-six archives later is quite simply a case of having one's head in the sand. Britain will be forced into the eurozone and Irish objections to this title over their country will be as live as ever. Oh, and yes we all know very well that there is a direct connection between the rise of the EU and the greater use of this term among Eurosceptic British wikipedians as part of their battle to assert their separateness. 86.42.96.251 (talk) 13:39, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Fine rant although it was totally incorrect and has nothing to do with the current debate. Keep on topic please :) BritishWatcher (talk) 14:41, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

A few lines up you are saying how glad the discussion has moved on from the "silly" move request. Now you want to stay on topic. Sarah777 (talk) 22:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

IP 86, I can assure you that it isn't just the British who are Eurosceptic. Come to Italy where I live, and you will see large-scale Euroscepticism from all socio-economic groups.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:03, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

The day when Italians are qualified to give lecture on politics (their governments change quicker than the seasons) and economy (rampant corruption and nepotism) is the day when Hell freezes over. Flamarande (talk) 12:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia naming policy

A comment was made on this page a little while ago by an IP which gets to the heart of the ongoing dispute. As it will be hard for some to find this is what was said..

"> On the other hand, no taskforce will change the fact that "British Isles" is the most offensive term for the archipleago that contains the United Kingdom and Ireland, a fact which makes any claims of "most common term" subservient and quite irrelevant according to wikipedia rules. It's odd how this very real fact (mentioned above and below) is overlooked in this discussion. Why? 86.42.96.251 (talk) 16:28, 1 April 2009 (UTC)"

This is the reason that certain people are seeking to change the article name, it has nothing to do with British Isles no longer being a common term, its that some people find it the most offensive term. Now i have had a quick read through of the wikipedia policies on this matter but i cant see where it says the common name in English should be less important than if some people are offended. Am i missing something? BritishWatcher (talk) 16:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

WP:UCN does say, Some terms are in common usage but are regarded as offensive. In those cases use widely known alternatives. When in doubt, check a mainstream reference work. A term can only be considered offensive if a verifiable, authoritative source can be quoted as citing it as such. However, despite a specific request, above, no-one has provided any justification for an appropriate and accurate "widely known alternative" that should and could be used instead. I doubt anyone argues that an unknown proportion of the (mainly Irish) population finds the term offensive. We should take that into consideration, but that in itself does not make every other consideration subservient. I'm sure the People's Republic of China, and its population of billions, finds the term Republic of China offensive too, that does not automatically make it a non acceptable term in Wikipedia. We need to get away from the nationalist perspectives and think objectively, sadly too many contributors appear wrapped up in geopolitical battles and thus the discussion that we should be having is being drowned out. Rockpocket 17:23, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Just as we see the increasing number of English speaking Indian editors now dictate Indian norms rather than British across a range of Indian related articles I imagine the Anglo-bias re China will be removed before too many years have passed. The Irish lack that numerical strength to oppose our country being saddled with offensive names that most English folk commonly use them. Rock, several of your comments here seem to indicate that you are in denial about the English/British nationalism on open display here. Sarah777 (talk) 22:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

You are the one spreading hate Sarah in almost every message you post on this matter, i can certainly understand why in the past you have had to be punished for your actions on wikipedia. Can you please tell us if you accept that ur attempt to change this articles title has been overwhelmingly opposed? If you do accept that then please close the process, if you dont please dont tell others they are in denial. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:44, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I think 86's 'removed rebuttal' here[4], though forceful, makes for a strong point, in that there is a long history of "name change", examples range from Windscale to Sellafield, and from Eire, to Irelandn and more. I am pretty certain that if, in the morning, the UK government said that Ireland was not in the BI's, Wikipedia would promptly follow suit by the afternoon. PurpleA (talk) 18:45, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

'86 made some excellent points which go to the heart of this issue. Why was he censored? Note the number of Irish editors who are blocked, banned or restricted from engaging on this issue if you look at many of the earlier debates; also note the calls on the British side of the debate for even more blocks. Sarah777 (talk) 22:42, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I think we all accept that if this term was no longer used and a new term was used to describe it then ofcourse there should be a renaming. But right now British Isles is used by many and there have been no serious suggestions to whats "more common". Sarah herself said the other day that "Britain and Ireland" is most common in Ireland, and yet she started a vote for changing this to "United Kingdom and Ireland". Nobody has given a common alternative to describe the British Isles.. Both the above mentioned are wrong because they exclude other parts of the British isles. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:16, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Both are common; Britain and Ireland is far the most common in Ireland but the UK and Ireland seems more common in the British media. I think either term is mpore common today that the "British" Isles. Sarah777 (talk) 22:44, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

You are talking rubbish, neither of the terms you say are common describe what this article talks about, as made clear by others on many occasions above. Britain and Ireland or United Kingdom and Ireland (which is not a geographic term) do not include the Isle of Man so should we just ignore them because they are small and have a tiny population? What was that u were saying before about us evil British outnumbering Irish people? BritishWatcher (talk) 22:54, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

The problem is really that the term is, in fact, objectionable to many Irish people, because it inaccurately gives the impression that Ireland is British. That's it. The compromise worked out here in the past is that the term would be only used in a geographical context - so the new problem we face is that a number of editors (some deliberately mischievously) use the term outside of a geographical context. The Task Force is trying to lay down some ground rules over usage - what is considered geographical and what is not. At least that compromise will be agreed by most... --HighKing (talk) 21:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Im sorry but u seem to be blaming this on one side when it is infact several editors whos only goal appears to be to change this articles title with out having any real idea what it should be changed to. I see atleast one of the people seeking for this article to be renamed was involved in that taskforce which is no longer active, if after all that taskforce went through some people are unprepared to accept this title i fail to see what progress it will make on content. I see that was ended because it was awaiting the outcome of the on the Republic of Ireland naming dispute, well looking at that today nothing productive will come out of that process for months and i still think the Ireland naming dispute has nothing at all to do with this debate on the British Isles its a totally different matter.

Creating fancy taskforces and other pages to resolve this articles content problems is not needed. It should be done here. Im sure everyone is happy to engage in a proper debate about content but the silly attempts to change this article title have to be put to one side. I can see now why some people end up having to retire from wikipedia over these issues, things become so messed up at times. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

It cannot be done here because of the numerical strength of British Nationalism. How many times do I have to point that out? Sarah777 (talk) 22:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Sarah despite all that work done on the taskforce, we are here today with you trying to have this articles title changed. Clearly the process failed there so i fail to see why it will work if we move it somewhere else again. Sorry but it is not just British editors who have the commonsense to see what the correct title is on this article. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:56, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

"Correct" title? No such thing. There are competing titles, one of them extremely offensive to a significant minority of the people in the islands described. It needs to be changed to something more consistent with WP:NPOV. Sarah777 (talk) 23:24, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

We do not draw the maps, we dont name the locations, there is no competing title that comes close to British Isles and you know it. Thats why u have proposed two DIFFERENT title changes over the past few days. Goes to show there isnt a common second name for the British Isles. There are plenty of terms on wikipedia that are deeply offensive and could be given more moderate titles but it doesnt happen. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

It is quite obvious British Watcher that you will never agree to a change of name. I will ask you though, do you understand why some Irish people would be offended by the name? Jack forbes (talk) 23:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Jack i totally accept and i can totally understand why many Irish people are offended by the term "British Isles". I have no problem accepting a name change if it is really the case the term is not used anymore and there is something which is more commonly used to describe it. But right now that is just not the case, its still used often by many different sources (not just British ones) and people have failed to say what an alternative is that includes ALL the things the British Isles do. "Britain and Ireland" and "United Kingdom and Ireland" would simply be incorrect, and the second one very confusing considering its very similar to the former country name. We dont hide the fact many people are offended by the term, its in the second paragraph of the intro and theres a whole article on the naming dispute, but we cant change the name because a few people are unhappy on wikipedia. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree about "United Kingdom and...", but I think "Britain and Ireland" does, genuinely, get used as an alternative to British Isles. If you think about it, the "British" of "British Isles" is far less inclusive of all that it supposedly describes than "Britain" is in relation to "Britain and Ireland" when meant to mean the same as BI. In any event, "Britain" is such a vague and broadly used term that its not totally accurate to say that it can't mean, for example, the Isle of Man, which is both a crown territory of Britain's and where its people are citizens of Britain. I don't know what the people of IoM think of that, but I do believe they and the Channel Islanders combined don't match the non-British population of the island of Ireland. Given the multiple meanings possible with "Britain and Ireland," can it be confusing? Sure. But British Isles is confusing. I'd argue it's more confusing. I do still think this page needs to stay at BI (unfortunately!), but I also take issue with you using terms like silly and stupid in relation to the move. Nuclare (talk) 00:39, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree the UK one is even more incorrect, which is why i was stunned that the current Requested move proposed by Sarah is to United Kingdom and Ireland, despite her claiming a day or two ago that Britain and Ireland was most common. However you say "Given the multiple meanings possible with "Britain and Ireland," can it be confusing?", i think the fact it has multiple meanings is exactly why its confusing. There is not actually an article on wikipedia titled "Britain", we have Great Britain and that article makes very clear we are talking about a single island and it DOESNT include the Isle of Man. I have not heard ANYONE question what the British Isles is, we can define it very easily. The only confusion is some people think the term makes everyone in the isles British or people think its a single country, but we address all of those matters very clearly in the introduction.

I am glad you see the reason why it should stay at British Isles right now because there is no alternative, as i said before if it is really the case that British Isles falls out of use and another term replaces it then i will fully accept a name change, but the fact the same person has tried to change the name to two different things just proves there isnt a common alternative. Those seeking change have provided no solid argument, they all just go on a rant about evil British people. Some of their comments have been deeply offensive so i stand by my comment that this has been a silly and stupid process. We had a vote it was overwhelmingly rejected and then a new vote started to change it to a different name which isnt even clear in the voting section, all we get is a "?" which has also been overwhelmingly rejected and they knew it would be. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

What if it falls out of use and nothing fully replaces it? Keep it mind that not talking about the islands as a unit is actually in itself an alternative. ...Anyways, your comments on "Britain" being confusing don't change the fact that B&I *is* used as an alternative to BI. That Britain has multiple meanings doesn't mean that B&I can't be an alternative to BI. And I didn't say there is "no alternative." I simply think BI is still (unfortunately) too commonly used to be replaced.

You stated, I have not heard ANYONE question what the British Isles is, we can define it very easily. Well, not really. Just above there is a debate as to whether its geographical only or geocultural, etc. It's used sometimes to include the Channel Islands, sometimes not, which is actually a bigger deal than sometimes stated because it goes to the geographical vs. geopolitical point. And it's often used as a synonym for British Islands. You can say that such use is just wrong, but given that it has no statutory meaning and many Irish very much consciously want it to be used as a synonym for British Islands, usage is all that defines it. Nuclare (talk) 11:44, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm i accept theres different points of view when it comes to content and i dont have a problem with a debate on content being held but the Requested move simply distracts people from getting into detail about those issues. On geography the British Isles may be confused with British Islands (A term id never heard before looking at that wiki article several months ago) and some may dispute the inclusion of certain islands although we have plenty of solid sources to back up what is an isnt part of the British Isles, Unlike on "Britain" where that is only about the island of Britain and does not include the Isle of Man. The big problem is clearly content, British Isles is only a Geographical term but that doesnt mean we shouldnt talk about the shared history of the people on these islands and current cooperation. Just as the article on Europe doesnt ignore the fact there are sovereign states and been wars etc

If the term simply died out then this article title would remain because its part of history and wikipedia can not simply ignore that. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Then again, if one believes that a page is located at an offensive/objectionable name, moving the page is going to be far more important than content, so the page move requests are hardly surprising. Believe me, if England were located at 'Perfidious Albion,' no doubt most English editors would be far more concerned with moving the page than with content. It's easy when one doesn't find the name objectionable to dismiss such attempts--however much of a losing battle they may be--as silly and stupid. Nuclare (talk) 01:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Sarah, if you identify what that 'something' should be and give good reasons and references to why the new title should be used then you might get somewhere. British Isles is not the perfect title but'll editors will have to justify a new title for reasons other than the usual the name is offensive malarky. The Wikipedia naming policy is a good starting point for an argument/debate but good reasons will have to be made for any new title.MusicInTheHouse (talk) 23:31, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

MITH is absolutely spot on. Those editors most voraciously arguing for change are so wrapped up in the dislike for British Isles that they are missing the point of much of the opposition. It is not British nationalism that is causing many people to oppose, it is:

1. The lack of proposed alternative. "British Isles → ?" is not an option anyone who values policy and process can actually support.
2. The lack of an explanation of how that alternative is widely understood to have the same meaning as the current title.
3. The lack of a justification of why that alternative is a better option, citing the relevant policies and guidelines in support.

Once those are addressed and presented without geopolitical soapboxing or personal attacks, then, and only then, can a rational discussion about specifics be had. Until that time nothing will change in this article, because the relevant issue is not even being discussed. So the question is this, do any editors really want this article to change title, or are they looking for a forum to argue politics?

I am going to close the above !vote now for a number of reasons. Firstly is isn't a proposal that can ever be enacted by due process, because there isn't a target title that can be agreed on. Secondly, the discussion is not about the relevant issues and thus is distracting from having that discussion. Finally, its clearly not going to result in a consensus for a move. If any editor wants to continue a discussion on a possible move, feel free. However, I strongly urge you to make a new proposal only if you can address the three issues above and desist from political soapboxing in the process. Rockpocket 03:57, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Well said, totally agree. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:19, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Complete nonsense. I have provided two alternatives either of which are more appropriate. (1) "Anyone who values the policy" of WP:NPOV could not fail to support this move. (2) The last thing we need is an "alternative [which] is widely understood to have the same meaning as the current title" - the problem with the current title is precisely its meaning, (3) "citing the relevant policies and guidelines"; WP:NPOV and others already cited above. Sarah777 (talk) 20:40, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Really, Sarah. Let me quote what you wrote, opening this discussion:

Proposal: British Isles → ?

Support, as proposer. We need to get some Irish editors notified to balance the POV. How may I do that within the rules? Sarah777 (talk) 22:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

So what exactly are the two alternatives that you proposed and which of them are you supporting? Rockpocket 17:52, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Irony break: - I am dogged in these debates by calls that I be blocked and banned for using the terms "British Nationalist" or "British editors" as aggressive and offensive - yet we are supposed to then think "British Isles" applied to Ireland is policy! Truly, no writer of farce could invent this stuff!! Sarah777 (talk) 20:48, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

You are totally unprepared to address the very clear points raised and i dont think any of us should waste more time on the requested move proposal which has closed. The title must remain the same and the overwhelming majority / commonsense have spoken, if at some stage down the line Sarah you are prepared to be productive perhaps we could all address the content issues. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:51, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I have very clearly addressed the points raised. If you think you are wasting your time them I have some suggestions; and there is nothing "commonsense" in an offensive political POV title being used in a geographical article. As for productivity I won't take lectures from someone with 600 mainspace edits mostly on British lists and the British Empire. Sarah777 (talk) 21:05, 2 April 2009 (UTC)