Talk:Al-Tall, Acre

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Moved[edit]

al-Tall, Acre as per established naming convention...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 13:22, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dharat et-Tell[edit]

According to Aharon Kempinski's final report of Tel Kabri, the full name of this village was Dharat et-Tell (Kempinski 2002: 2). Anyone seen this elsewhere? I think even with this one source it's worth mentioning. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 6 Tevet 5775 01:13, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind, it just means the ridge of the tell. I'm not entirely sure why Kempinski chose to name it like that, but no worries. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 6 Tevet 5775 18:02, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No Et-Tell in the 1931 Census[edit]

I can't find et-Tell anywhere in that census. I see en-Nahr and al-Kabri, but there's no et-Tell. It was still around, to my knowledge. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 10 Tevet 5775 16:22, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned to you somewhere else, et-Tell was situated on the village land of en-Nahr. (I wonder if we can get away with citing a map for that; some people in wp think that reading a map is original research.) Khalidi describes et-Tell and en-Nahr as twin villages. On page 27 there is a note about the censuses. In the 1922 census they are combined (entry is "Al Nahr wal Tal"). In the 1931 census there is no mention of et-Tell, as you say. That's also true of the 1945 population survey. This suggests that et-Tell was combined with en-Nahr then too, but Khalidi expresses doubt about it. He says that the rate of growth would be much less than that of surrounding villages if that was the case. He also cites a source that in 1948 the population of en-Nahr was about 600 and the population of et-Tell was about 300, would would give the combined villages typical growth. I'll add some of this information to the article. Zero^talk 02:27, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't doubt that. Karmon basically said that as well. I was kind of pointing out the lack of it in the article, but also seeking an explanation about it (which you've given. Thank you for that!). I think WP:COMMONSENSE would defend map reading, but that's just my opinion. This is all good to know, though. I'm really wanting that al-Khalidi now, haha. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 11 Tevet 5775 03:11, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Change the article name to et-Tell, Acre[edit]

Near as I can tell, most of the sources refer to the site as et-Tell (the proper way in spoken Arabic) rather than al-Tell/Tall (how it's spelled in written Arabic). Based on this, I'd like to move the article to Et-Tell. If there's no objections in the next few days, I'll make the move. Thanks! Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 10 Tevet 5775 16:32, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really object, but I'll note that generally for former Arab villages we have used the spelling in Khalidi's book, which is "al-Tall" in this case. Khalidi's is the most scientific attempt to list all of the depopulated villages. Zero^talk 02:16, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I get that. The only reason I bring it up is because most of the time I see it as et-Tell, and I wonder about people searching for it getting the West Bank site (I've since put an about hatnote) finding nothing and abandoning their search in despair. Before I started taking Arabic, I wouldn't have known about this simple rule in Arabic (the difference in pronunciation for the definite article between written and spoken Arabic). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 11 Tevet 5775 03:21, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Official status of et-Tell[edit]

This comment might be read in conjunction with that about the censuses above. During the British administration there were official lists of villages published from time to time in the Palestine Gazette. I have some but not all of these. Here is what the official village lists I can find have, together with some other mentions in parentheses. Zero^talk 03:47, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jun 1924, PG 116, p684: Both "El Tel" and "Nahr" are listed.
(Sep 1934, PG 468 Suppl 2, p854: "El Tel" is declared to be a rabies infected area (together with about 25 other places including Kabri but not Nahr). The announcement says "the Government is pleased to declare", which wasn't a great choice of words.)
Dec 1939, PG 974 Suppl 2, p1529: "Nahr, En (including Et Tall and El Humeima)". There is a footnote on Et Tall and El Humeima which says "Previously declared villages".
Dec 1940, PG 1064 Suppl 2, p1770: Only "En Nahr"
Jan 1942, PG 1163 Suppl 2, p119: Only "En Nahr"
(Jan 1942, PG 1164 Suppl 2, p181: There is a notice that land settlement procedures would soon be applied to some villages, including "En Nahr (including et Tall and El Humeima)".)
Mar 1943, PG 1255 Suppl 2, p215: Only "En Nahr"
(Dec 1944, PG 1375 Suppl 2, pp1219–1338: There is a very long list of archaeological sites. The entry "en Nahr (et Tell)" reads "Artificial mound beneath village with traces of ancient remains.")
Jun 1945, PG 1415 Suppl 2, p621: Only "En Nahr"
Jan 1947, PG 1552 Suppl 2, p125: Only "En Nahr"

It seems from this that Et Tell was officially a separate village until 1939, when it became part of En Nahr. However that doesn't explain why Et Tell is not in the 1931 census. Zero^talk 03:47, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, I had never heard of el Humeima. Where is that? Also, for purposes of entertaining the entirety of the Kabri dig-crew, I will require a photo of that rabies citation. I've only discovered rabies vaccine at Tel Megiddo's Area Q. It seems that on an official level, et-Tell and en-Nahr were considered one village. Maybe before that people considered them one entity, but we lack the documentation to prove it. The '31 we can't explain without doing OR, sadly. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 11 Tevet 5775 05:10, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

El Humeima was 3km to the west of Et Tell at 160/268, now buried inside Nahariya. En Nahr owned some land over there detached from its main holding but I don't have that part of the 1:20,000 map at the moment to check if it included El Humeima. I don't think Khalidi mentions it. I can give you stuff if you send me mail. Zero^talk 06:38, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]