Talk:Abergavenny Castle

Copyright issues

Because of the number of sourcing / potential copyright violations (see this tagged version) and other issues, it would be easier to start this article essentially from scratch.

For one thing, the first couple sections are direct copies of information from a book of fiction.--CaroleHenson (talk) 05:23, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Damn, that's a real shame. Good catch. Out of curiosity, what fiction book was copied, and what tipped you off that there were copyright issues? Nev1 (talk) 20:11, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

The book, which I added to further reading was: W. B. Baker (1 April 2010). The Wraiths of Raglan Wood. Xlibris Corporation. ISBN 978-1-4500-7751-4. Retrieved 17 July 2013.

I found it when I did a search on the first sentence of the first section - then I continued down with the rest of the article when I found a copyright issue. It was a shame, because I saw that there had been many people who had contributed to the article unknowingly.--CaroleHenson (talk) 20:15, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

The plot thickens: the section titled 'Norman origins' in this version from October 2008 bears an uncanny resemblance to the second paragraph on page 436 of Baker's book. However the copyright of Baker's book was asserted in 2010, so I think they may actually have 'borrowed' from Wikipedia. A search for 'Wikipedia' doesn't turn up any results, so if they did copy they do so without attribution. Nev1 (talk) 21:23, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

In fact, something similar was present in the first version of the article in September 2006 and the text has gradually changed, as is classic Wikipedia style. And Xlibris is a self-publishing company. It's looking more and more like Baker copied Wikipedia. For those couple of sentences anyway, I haven't checked the rest of the article. Nev1 (talk) 21:28, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Great legwork! It's so hard to sort these matters out when the article is uncited, but you've done some great researching.

So, we know where they got the info from, but where did it come from for the article? Hmmmm.--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:34, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I think this is the only missing block, which I thought came from the book of fiction:

The castle was sited above the River Usk overlooking the river valley and the confluence of the rivers Gavenny and Usk. The site would have been naturally defensible in earlier times and may well have been a fortified site in the Bronze and Iron Ages. Later it was also favoured by the Romans who built their fort of Gobannium on the same hilltop, just a little to the west of the site later developed into the castle. There were steep slopes down to the river on three sides, and the town developed on the remaining side of the castle, probably on the site of the Roman fort and settlement. The main castle gatehouse faced the town, which was later walled.

Some of this is covered in the Abergavenny article, and some of it (overlooking Usk, gatehouse, defensive wall) is in the article already.--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Ediits

Just as an FYI,

• my main goal is to update content with reliable secondary non-fiction sources  Done
• I am also reworking and adding content based upon research  Done - There's likely more that can be found, but it's a good start
• I'll do an AWB clean up at the end to fix spelling, order of citations, etc.  Done
• will update summary - ok as it is
• roll-up mid-sentence citations - not needed

Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. If you want an example of where I'm headed, see Newport Castle.--CaroleHenson (talk) 14:41, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I've finished my updates unless anyone sees anything I've missed.--CaroleHenson (talk) 22:41, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I've found a few errors - for example, the 1175 massacre was not in any sense a "battle" or an "attack", it was a massacre of unarmed Welsh nobles by de Braose and his men. I'll make some further changes from my offline sources. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:58, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Owain

I am not finding reliable secondary sources for this information. The only site I found seemed to have copied the information from this article for the following:

(continuation of sentence about the town of Abergavenny) ...as were other English held settlements in Monmouthshire, such as nearby Grosmont and Crickhowell. However Abergavenny Castle succeeded in defending itself against an infantry attack, and could have withstood a siege if necessary. A small garrison of archers and men-at-arms could defend a castle against an army and such an arrangement usually deterred any attack. Chepstow Castle, although much larger than Abergavenny Castle, had a garrison at that time of only 20 men-at-arms and 60 archers, and was avoided by Glyndŵr's forces altogether although they successfully sacked Newport Castle.

Any sources I'm not finding?--21:12, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

1. That section read as though it speculation on the part of the author. Not necessarily wrong, but I would be tempted to remove it.
2. I just added a link to the Gatehouse Gazetteer to the external links section. It's a very useful website and aims to list all the sources relating to castles in England and Wales, organised by site.
3. This source is a PhD thesis and mentions Abergavenny Castle, with particular emphasis on pages 111 to 115. Perhaps a grey area for Wikipedia, but since it is used in the Historic Environment Record, I think that means it's certainly good enough for Wikipedia (and briefly reading over it now, very good full stop). Nev1 (talk) 22:03, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Numbered above info for responses.--CaroleHenson (talk) 22:29, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

1. Agreed.
2. Seems to be a great source. Good idea.
3. It is very interesting and would add a lot to the article. It is a grey area and I've not had good luck when I've stumbled into use of dissertations, so I've made it a habit not to go there. It could be a good way to back into the information, since it's well sourced, though.--CaroleHenson (talk) 22:37, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

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