Draft talk:Jai Singh's attack on Bijapur

Name

WP:RS sources used in the article Mentions this battle as Jai Singh Attack on Bijapur

https://archive.org/details/the-marathas-1600-1818-cambridge-history-of-india-vol.-2-part-4

Pg 28: Rataji Mane repulsed the attack of Jai Singh WhiteReaperPM (talk) 16:38, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Rethinking_Early_Modern_India/_jJuAAAAMAAJ?hl=en

Pg 159 mentions the same WhiteReaperPM (talk) 16:46, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Elements_Amongst_the_Marathas/1Vg9AAAAMAAJ?hl=en

Pg 203 Also Mentions: Rataji Mane , son of Narsingrao Mane , was in the services of Bijapur and offered stiff opposition to Jaising , the Mogul General , when he attacked Bijapur in the year 1665

So the Name Jai Singh's Attack on Bijapur is perfect and not invented WhiteReaperPM (talk) 01:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Consider using WP:AFC, than moving directly to mainspace. Found a lot of drawbacks in current version. It is almost not ready for mainspace, I won't draftify this myself. Follow and solve the issues addressed in the tags. Imperial^[AFCND] 14:05, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I will update as needed to be Thankyou for your guidance WhiteReaperPM (talk) 03:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Mughal Banner?

@ImperialAficionado Quote from the source that Shivaji fought under the Mughal flag/banner. As far as I can see it just said that he accompanied the Mughals. Sudsahab (talk) 14:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh God. Is this a serious question? He was a vassal of the Mughal empire during the campaign. Additionally, here the quote if you need, quoting John F Richards, Shivaji surrendered his independence and entered the imperial system as a chief or, in the imperial parlance, a zamindar. Clear that he entered the imperial system as a Mughal chief. Imperial^[AFCND] 15:37, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

You don't need to use metaphoric terms. Vassal =/= Fought under banner. And Shivaji didn't accept Mughal mansab/zamindar, It's untenable and probable misinterpretation of sources. Sudsahab (talk) 16:23, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Being entered as a chief is enough for us to use the Mughal flag along with him. And I did quote "he surrendered his independence" right? So it is indeed inappropriate to use the Maratha flag there. And quoting from Gordon, page number 74, After the rainy season, as a Mughal commander, Shivaji was given orders to conquer the Panhala fort and region from the Bijapuris.

• Surrendered independence
• Entered as a Mughal Chief
• Fought in command of the Mughal army as a Mughal commander

I don't understand what more is needed. Imperial^[AFCND] 16:54, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Being entered as a chief is enough for us to use the Mughal flag along with him Hold on, this is WP:OR. After the treaty of Purandar (in which Shivaji had stipulated that he would not be compelled to accept a mansab and also that he would not be required to attend the Mughal Imperial Court.) Shivaji sued for peace and asked for a Mansab for his son Sambhaji but not for him. "He had never been, and was never likely to be, anybody’s vassal. When he had to sue for peace with Jai Singh he had accepted a mansab for his son; but he would accept none for himself" Also he never entered into Mughal service because of these following incidence:

This can be further contradicted by Shivaji's own words, when he was present in Agra- "You have seen, your father has seen, your Emperor has seen what a man I am, and yet you have deliberately kept me standing! I cast off your mansab. I am such a man and yet I was deliberately kept standing. I decline the Emperor’s mansab. I will not be his servant." here we can see Shivaji is straightforwardly rejecting Mansab/Zamindar that to be offered by Aurangzeb. Both quotes are excerpts from Shivaji his life and times. pp 599-601 (go through default IA paging) Sudsahab (talk) 20:59, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Shivaji was a Mughal vassal according to the New Cambridge History of India. Both Stewart Gordon and John F Richards calls him as a vassal, and records him as fought for the Mughal empire. Pinging @Asilvering to resolve the dispute. Pinging @ActivelyDisinterested to resolve the source issue. "Being entered as a chief is enough for us to use the Mughal flag along with him Hold on, this is WP:OR.", no, the Cambridge History of India records that Shivaji fought as a Mughal commander and entered as a chief (of Mughals). And as he surrendered his independence, we can't use the Maratha flag along with him. The status of both Jai Singh and Shivaji are the same during that period, ie the Mughal vassal (per latest Cambridge sources). That is why the Mughal flag is used along with them, instead their own state's flag. Imperial^[AFCND] 04:22, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sudsahab, the author of "Shivaji his life and times", Gajanan Bhaskar Mehendale has been found several times, praising the Marathas and Shivaji in many instances (see youtube). I wouldn't trust his synthesis in this case, over Gordon and Richards. Thanks. Imperial^[AFCND] 04:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

@ImperialAficionado, I'm happy to answer any questions you have about editing, but if you're looking for a non-involved third party to resolve a dispute, the place to ask is WP:3O, rather than pinging a specific editor. I will say, though, that as a historian I'm extremely skeptical of any claim based on "Shivaji's own words". -- asilvering (talk) 05:35, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

@Asilvering, Thank you as always. I submitted a request for 3O [1] , but I'm concerned that I may have made a mistake since I'm not familiar with it, and I can't find any previous requests to use as a reference. Did I make any mistake? Imperial^[AFCND] 05:53, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

This is a vague reason "The author of Shivaji his life's and times, Gajanan Bhaskar Mehendale has been found several times praising the Marathas" I already know about him and don't again needed to be referred on YouTube, he's a polyglot in Persian, Marathi, Sanskrit and studied immense documents like Bakhars, Parkladas and Khafi Khan's works moreover he has studied other contemporary letters, English, Dutch, Portuguese, French and Persian accounts. To some extent Shivaji aided Jai Singh in his Bijapur campaign after the treaty of Purandar but there was no contemporary account found that he entered the Mansab or even fought under the Mughal banner. And no the status of Jai Singh and Shivaji was not same, as we know Jai Singh was a high ranking Mughal Mansabdar but it's not the same case with Shivaji. When Shivaji himself rejected Mughal Mansabdari/Zamindari in Agra court (quoted above) then this discussion should have been already concluded. Sudsahab (talk) 08:25, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

"Fought under Mughal banner". That's the issue? I"ve quoted above that "he fought as a Mughal commander". Both are referring the same. Imperial^[AFCND] 08:46, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

That's not the only issue, as I said and quoted that GB Mehendane has rejected such claims that he was a vassal as per Shivaji's own words in Agra. Sudsahab (talk) 09:10, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Waiting for the third person's opinion. The reliability of Mehendane should be discussed at RSN. Imperial^[AFCND] 09:15, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Looks good to me. @Sudsahab, if you can provide a source for the information in your following comment (And no the status of Jai Singh..., etc), that will help whoever comes to provide the 3O. I don't think it's likely that you'll get someone who is particularly familiar with Indian history. -- asilvering (talk) 02:16, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

3O Response: As far as I can see, this dispute is about flagicons in the infobox. Per MOS:COA and MOS:INFOBOXFLAG, using such flags for historical figures often results in ambiguity, confusion, and unnecessary disputes such as this. I suggest that the flagicons be removed not only for Shivaji but also for Jai Singh. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:35, 23 April 2024 (UTC) ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:35, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Another dispute exists that "Shivaji was not the vassal of the Mughals". Expecting your opinion on that too. Imperial^[AFCND] 13:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

From the sources, it is quite clear that Shivaji was a Mughal vassal during the campaign described in the article. The Cambridge History states he became a vassal of the Mughal emperor, paying tribute, but exempted from personal service as a mansabadar, as part of the treaty of June 1665; Mahendale indicates the same—that Shivaji did not become a personal servant of the Mughal state "had stipulated that he would not be compelled to accept a mansab", but swore economic and military oaths as part of his submission and thus became a vassal ("his allegiance to the Mughal Emperor", and as he still aimed "to establish his own independent kingdom", he was not yet independent). The campaign in the article took place at the end of 1665 and the start of 1666. It was only in May 1666 that Shivaji had that fateful encounter wit Aurangzeb at Agra. For the record, I have no problem with using Mahendale as an RS. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:32, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank u, @AirshipJungleman29, for your intervention in resolving this dispute. We appreciate your assistance and look forward to relying on your expertise in addressing any existing or potential conflicts that may arise. Sudsahab (talk) 19:21, 27 April 2024 (UTC)